It's about time we define "fedora"

[Lefty]

This keeps coming up and we don't have anything close to an answer.

Rlk put together some great information on the origin of the term "fedora" and the way in which hats with that label changed from the late 1800s into the early 1900s. Now, let's try to define the term as we understand it today.

I like CptJeff's suggestion that a fedora must be made of a single piece of material, rather than a cut-and-sewn approach. Of course, that would exclude all straw hats and any of those wild two tone hats, where a crown of one color sewn to a brim of another, as well as those WalMart caps that noone wants to call fedoras.

And what about the brim? Does it have to snap? Can it be curled? When does a fedora become something else - like a cowboy hat?

The wikipedia entry is beyond epic failure, so let's see if we can put together anything better.

Take your shot.

 

[Torpedo]

So far I agree with Lefty. My two cents on the matter would be...

- No more than 3"" brim.

- No fancy ribbons (leather, snake skin, feathers, etc- but a discreet ornament like a feather or a pin are right)

I think the snap would be a necessary characteristic, too. If you have a snap, but choose to wear the brim up all around, would it cease to be a fedora? I don't think so. Conversely, a homburg can sport a fedora-like crease, but, its brim having no snap, would not qualify as a fedora.

I am not attempting to say everything, it will be more interesting if there is participation. Keep them coming!

 

[Mobile Vulgus]

I have to say...

I have to say that I always thought of a fedora in rather restrictive terms. I realize that many people will not agree with me at all (especially about Trilbys).

To me a fedora is a man's hat (never a woman's), it is felt or beaver (never straw or other cloth), and it only refers to the creased or bashed hats that became popular in the 1930s, 40s, 50s and early 60s before men's hats went out of style for the general public during the hippie culture. Also, brims must be between 2 and 3 inches to be considered a fedora to me. Anything shorter or longer and it feels less like a fedora and more like some other class of hat.

I also never thought of a Homburg as a fedora.

Previous to the 1930s men's hats were not really fedoras. They were sugarloaf hats, caps, bowlers, toppers, cowboy hats, and other styles, but fedoras to me didn't really come into their own until the 30s.

I even have trouble seeing a Tribly as a fedora, I have to say. Those tiny brims just don't say "fedora" to me.

I would also exclude Panamas and Aussie styled outback hats (more like cowboy hats, really). Like I said, I stop considering any hat with more than a 3 inch brim as a fedora.

I am sure this will not sit well with others, but when someone says fedora to me this is what I feel when I hear the word.

Lastly, this is not to say that I do not like all the other hat styles I mention above. In fact, I have most of them. This is just what I think when someones says "fedora."

OK, flame away...

 

[Aerol]

Is a Homburg a style of fedora? Is a pork-pie? How about a trilby?

Perhaps we should just settle for a paraphrase of Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's observation about pornography: I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.

 

[Lefty]

The "I know it when I see it Lounge" isn't catchy.

 

[rlk]

A SOFT hat(not stiff like a Derby or Topper) with a tapered(not straight like a top hat but near straight OK) crown with a CENTER CREASE and flanged BRIM around the circumference(up or down not the key nor is size or binding).

Many creases develop from the center crease(key)--diamond, C-crown, Cattlemen's etc. thus are Fedora family members.

The telescope or porkpie or domed crown is not a Fedora.

This is as broad as possible consistent with its historical origins and what hatters or the public would have thought of when hats were still worn by the majority of males.

 

[Mobile Vulgus]

On porkpies

Oh, yeah, and I agree with rik above. Porkpies are not fedoras.

 

[Neophyte]

A soft hat(not stiff like a derby or Topper) with a tapered(not straight like a top hat but near straight OK) crown with a CENTER CREASE and flanged brim around the circumference(up or down not the key nor is size or binding).
Many creases develop from the center crease(key)--diamond, C-crown, Cattlemen's etc. thus are Fedora family members.

The telescope or porkpie or domed crown is not a Fedora.

I like it!

 

[Nick D]

I have to say that I always thought of a fedora in rather restrictive terms. I realize that many people will not agree with me at all (especially about Trilbys).

That opens a whole 'nother can of worms. Is trilby just British Engligh for American English fedora? Are they two different things? Can they exist side by side? Does contact between a trilby and a fedora cause instant, mutual annihilation?

 

[Lefty]

Can a hat go from fedora to non-fedora; if I porkpie a fedora, is it no longer a fedora?

Is an opened crown hat not a fedora until its creased with something other than a porkpie?

(Watch as I make my fedora [dis]appear! )

Nobody said it would be easy.

 

[rlk]

That opens a whole 'nother can of worms. Is trilby just British Engligh for American English fedora? Are they two different things? Can they exist side by side? Does contact between a trilby and a fedora cause instant, mutual annihilation?

Nope just a subset with a name of its own.
Borsalino in France is a similar case.

 

[rlk]

Can a hat go from fedora to non-fedora; if I porkpie a fedora, is it no longer a fedora?

(Watch as I make my fedora disappear! )

Nobody said it would be easy.

Its still a soft hat, but it is no longer a Fedora. The form has changed.
If I fold a square paper over in half diagonally it is now a triangle but it is still a piece of paper.

 

[rlk]

There were times when the definition was far narrower and nearly specific. The above was as far as one could go with any coherence. This includes a lot of styles not generally thought of or referred to as Fedoras but which conform to a basic consistent definition.

The current overuse of the term Fedora for all soft snap-brims is not historically accurate. In fact the early years of the Fedora were not snap-brims, and when "snap-brims" came into Vogue in the 20's(yes, they did exist well before that) it was the dominant way of referring to them--not as Fedoras.

 

[Lefty]

Its still a soft hat, but it is no longer a Fedora. The form has changed.
If I fold a square paper over in half diagonally it is now a triangle but it is still a piece of paper.

This is a bit odd, though, because you're saying it's both the shape and the material(s?), and yet, it can change to something else very easily. For that reason, I'm having trouble buying the center crease part of it. I'm still thinking about the reasoning, but I can't see why an open crown or a porkpie isn't a fedora.

Remember, I'm not binding us with the historical definition or historic common use. This is us, defining the term, based on everything we know.

 

[rlk]

Now what if I lacquer, or otherwise stiffen to rigidity, my Fedora or make a Sculpture or other representation with the appearance of a Fedora? It is no longer soft or necessarily even 3-dimensional. I'll have to make allowances for representations not intended for wearing. Its not a Fedora but looks like one.

 

[rlk]

This is a bit odd, though, because you're saying it's both the shape and the material(s?), and yet, it can change to something else very easily. For that reason, I'm having trouble buying the center crease part of it. I'm still thinking about the reasoning, but I can't see why an open crown or a porkpie isn't a fedora.

Remember, I'm not binding us with the historical definition or historic common use. This is us, defining the term, based on everything we know.

If you do this then each individual's own personal definition would have to be accepted regardless of the resultant variations(or correctness for what that's worth). Lets burn all the Dictionaries and Encyclopedias!!

 

[Lloyd]

A SOFT hat(not stiff like a Derby or Topper) with a tapered(not straight like a top hat but near straight OK) crown with a CENTER CREASE and flanged BRIM around the circumference(up or down not the key nor is size or binding).

Many creases develop from the center crease(key)--diamond, C-crown, Cattlemen's etc. thus are Fedora family members.

The telescope or porkpie or domed crown is not a Fedora.

This is as broad as possible consistent with its historical origins and what hatters or the public would have thought of when hats were still worn by the majority of males.

Jut to play Devil's Advocate, by your definition the same hat with a center crease or a pork pie crease may or may not be a fedora depending on the crown treatment at the moment of observation, correct?
And what about a hat with a reverse taper?
Sorry, I hadn't refreshed my screen for awhile and I see several others have made the same observations...

 

[rlk]

Jut to play Devil's Advocate, by your definition the same hat with a center crease or a pork pie crease may or may not be a fedora depending on the crown treatment at the moment of observation, correct?
And what about a hat with a reverse taper?
Sorry, I hadn't refreshed my screen for awhile and I see several others have made the same observations...

It may well be a former Fedora.
If I put a wig on a bald man is he still a bald man?(Yes by definition if you have all the info, but no by definition with a more casual observation)
Aside from the nonsense I have already attacked regarding the term "reverse taper" it is merely a form of distortion. If you distort anything enough eventually you can transform it, perhaps beyond recognition. This not really a useful issue.

I can come up with possible conflicts or exceptions for almost any definition. Without some historical reference it is pretty futile.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Seems to me it's best thought of in taxonomic terms:

You would have a particular Genus, in this case, Soft Hat.

Within that Genus you would have a subset of species (or more specifically for our purposes, Styles):

1. Fedora
2. Porkpie
3. Trilby
4. Etc.

In this case Fedora is not a specific type (or Genus) of hat, but rather it is a Style of hat. Yes, a Porkpie can be made from the same hat, but it is a distinctive style all its own, which is why we can classify it as such.

Brad

 

[fluteplayer07]

...Aside from the nonsense I have already attacked regarding the term "reverse taper" it is merely a form of distortion. If you distort anything enough eventually you can transform it, perhaps beyond recognition. This not really a useful issue...

So in the same way one can distort a hat by reversing the taper, can one distort a given crease on a fedora (say, a teardrop) and transform it into something past recognition (by our evolving definition); say a porkpie? Such by this definition, does reversing the taper still qualify the hat in question as a fedora? If so, how does that affect the definition of a porkpie?