Is there a line and, if so, how/where do you draw it?

[Monsoon]

Well, it's not like they're spending their money on hookers and blow.

Tho some people wouldn't think that was a waste, either.

 

[Superfluous]

Well, it's not like they're spending their money on hookers and blow.

Leather jackets are my hookers and sports cars are my blow.

 

[AeroFan_07]

First off, I must say, Tony, I'm right there with you! It seems my jacketaholic searches have slowed down a bit over the past 2-3 years, however they are still there.

Ok this is a great topic and Superfluous, I have to thank you for bringing it up. I want to reply after I've given it a little more thought, and it's rather late here. So this is a post prior to the real post that will come tomorrow. Please don't expect any type of "wisdom" from me, I just have random thoughts that sometimes appear to make sense. However I do get inspiried every time I come here!

 

[Justhandguns]

Sounds like we can write a PhD thesis in personal financing here!

Addiction is the word here. Spending is an addiction, some people are dealing with it better than the others. And all the companies and media are all trying to tempt you into addictions, it is also made easier with all the credit cards, the so called 'buy now pay later' psychology.

Saying that, my addiction seems to have subsided recently, and some jackets that I desire are simply out of my tiny budget.

 

[Edward]

Intersting discussion. I'm always intrigued by what people will and won't spend money on. I've seen guys who'll spend two fortunes on a vintag car, for example, but go daft at the idea of spending more than twenty quid on a pair of jeans (and they'll grumble at that, too). I grew up around the vintage car scene in Northern Ireland, and nobody there dresses the part. There was once a couple who were on the scene who had a little thirties Fiat Topolino done up as the Noddy car - they used to go out dressed as Noddy and Big Ears they were the only long term exception I remember.. There was once one guy turned up at a rally with a thirties Lagonda, dressed in an approximation of the period style. He was openly laughed at, as I recall. not seen again, at least not dressed like that. Odd world.

Point is, anyhow, that people will always see things worth spending on and not. You couldn't get me to spend anything on a car - anything at all - with the public transport system I have ready access to here in London, yet other people see a car as an absolute staple. There are those who will baulk at the idea of spending what I have on a leather jacket.... yet they'll spend more than double that on a watch. A huge amount of it is simply subjective interest.

It reminds me of a few years ago when I was on the Weightwatchers plan. I drink very little anyway, comparatively (it's rare that I would drink my full week's 21 units healthy allowance in a whole month, let alone seven days), but when I was on that points-based diet it was interesting to see how I chose to spend 'em. A pint was never going to beat a decent chocolate buscuit at the same 'points value'.... Others went the other way. So too with cash.

It's easier somewhat to draw the line for me at the minute, as I have a significant amount of weight I've gained over the last four years that I want to shift. At this point, I'm one to two sizes away from wanting to spend significant money on anything that will no longer fit once I downsize. It's interesting having to re-evaluate the worth of pieces on that front. (And I have bought one or two target bits as an incentive as well). I'm also trying to cut way back until I clear out my flat. I've got a bit of a hoarder tendency, in that I find it very hard to throw away anything if it means something going in the bin when it clearly could still be used by someone - an extreme aversion to the disposable society, if you like. I'm slowly clearing out stuff to a local charity shop, and it's helping enormously, after spending quite a few years with never having cleared out anything, just added. It's no exaggeration to say I wasn't all that far off being a candidate for one of those TV shows. It's far from easy, but I'm getting there gradually. The joy of having a little more space, having a usable spare room, that sort of thing, is a big incentive to keep going, to aim to be at the point where I have an appropriate amount of stuff in a two bed flat, instead of a five bedroom house's worth! In the meantime, I've also reached a point in life where I've figure out what I do and don't like, what is 'me', what I can live without (turns out not only a games console and VCR, but also a microwave - not used one at home since 2011), and that all helps in terms of keeping me focussed on what is worth it to me.

Jacket-worth is another interesting thing. I've learned that it's not all leathers I'll spend the money on. I wanted an Indy jacket, but it wasn't going to be something I would wear with great regularity, so I went for a used Wested. I'm interested in a Das Boot style, as an occasional Autumn/Spring replacement for a blazer or psorts jacket; in due course, I'll look at the Wested, whereas something I would wear far more frequently, like a short halfbelt, there's no question of not spending the money on an Aero. I tthink over time I've become prepared to spend more on my clothes, partly through need (original vintage is rarely an option for me, so I'm typically looking at vintage repro, and to get that done and done well, there is a cost over and above what off the rack on the high street equivalents would be), but also because unlike many other hobbies, my clothes have a practical purpose. I could spend as much and more on collecting coins or stamps, but my clothes get taken out and worn (while I have some stuff I'm more protective of, the rule is that if it would never get worn, I won't have it). My leather jackets are considerably more practical than almost any other hobby I've had. By comparison, I once spent GBP2,000 in two years, travelling all over the UK following the Rocky Horror Show. No regrets on that, but that time of my life has passed, and nowadays for that same money I could have several great jackets, or a jacket and a big holiday, or whatever. I do find I've reached a time in my life where I'm more prepared to spend big on specific items, but I'm more careful about where the money goes overall. I think in some ways I'm now buying things that will see me out (based on family history and average ages, I probably have thirty to thirty-five years left; I'm well past the halfway point). That definitely affects how I look at it. I've also always looked at clothes as a "price per wear". Something at £100 I'll wear twice a year is less of a good buy than something at £200 I'll wear three times a week.... That's how it goes.

 

[Justhandguns]

Jacket-worth is another interesting thing. I've learned that it's not all leathers I'll spend the money on. .........

Yes, in a way, that is part of the shopping psychology. Similar to why people are willing to buy watches which cost 10 times more than your most expensive jackets. There are several contributing factors here, desiredness, cost effectiveness, resale values. Cars, for instance, have little resale value, unless they are an E-type or Dino, some objects can keep their values better than the others, so they become more like an investment. But as in a financial market, things can go up and down, and if you are lucky, some of your vintage jackets may worth a few thousands in the near future.

 

[skydog757]

I have always been told to buy items because you like or enjoy them, not for solely for investment value. This seems particularly true with a car which you can spend thousands on modifying/restoring and only recoup a fraction of your money. There are plenty of reference sites or books that list an item's value as $$$$$, but if all you are being offered is $, then $ is what it's worth. That being said, there are a great many items that hold their value very well and there are indeed bargains to be found (and resold for profit).

 

[Stand By]

In answer to the second part of the question posed in the thread, I would say that my girlfriend draws the line for me these days - she's curbed many (but not all) of my former excesses, which is no bad thing in the grand scheme of things.
As for the former part, I think the line for me is "Can I justify this? Can I honestly say that I need it?" For instance, do I need an ANJ-4 when I already have an ELC RW B-3 and an ELC Irvin and a vintage N3-B from the mid-1950's for when it gets stupidly cold? As nice as they all undoubtedly all are, none of them are an ANJ-4 ... and I know that I could really appreciate an ANJ-4.
But ... need? And at a thousand pounds? That's when reality kicks in. Reality sucks sometimes.
But that said, I can say that it is the thrill of the hunt with these things and, as money is now less disposable for me (as I have home commitments to honour first in respect to bills/mortgage payments/groceries/pet food and such), I find myself scratching that itch rather vicariously through others here - and I feel genuine pleasure and satisfaction for them when they happily and proudly post photos of themselves in their jacket - as I have been very fortunate to know that pleasure (arguably more than my fair share) and I wish it on others.
I remember when I was about 21 and had just an Aviation Leathercraft Irvin and A2 and my dad's old 1958 Rolex - and I felt that I never wanted for more.
Fast forward to today and I have half a dozen better jackets and another Rolex (courtesy of my dad) and feel that it's important to remember to be happy with what I have, and I am - and I'm also glad I got them all whilst I was single!!!
I'd rather have quality than quantity these days.

And yes, we live in peculiar times where some folk have a strange idea of priorities and debt. There's an apartment block near my house and it looks rather bleak on the outside and, whenever I look at it, it always makes me think of Blade Runner ... and yet, you should see the fancy cars that whiz in and out of the underground car park! Jags, BMW's, Mercs, muscle cars ... you name it. It's such an incongruous sight, each time I see it. Strange days indeed.

But personally I think there's nothing wrong with a little debt to acquire something special - as long as the debt is serviced properly and worked off. No harm in that. Life is for living. It's all about balance.

 

[Bern1]

I personally draw the line at whether or not potential resale is likely to be higher or lower than my cost. I've spent a lifetime collecting, buying and selling vintage American guitars. For most of the last 40 years they have trended upwards, therefore the exit points were comfortable.
About 15 years ago I started getting into watches, again vintage. About a year into it I realized I just wasn't going to have the stomach for the 10 year learning curve and making a bunch of expensive mistakes. This all depends where the market is at your entry point of course. In my case with watches they were already expensive.

Next was Craftsman furniture. Again way past the affordable entry point. So I opted for well made reproductions and only bought what I really could use without regard for resale. This is where collecting per se went out the window.

These days with all of the above I have pared back to only those things I really love and still derive pleasure from.

Then came the jackets! Started off with a couple and all of a sudden I had half a dozen!

Here again if you buy new you are generally getting 50c on the $ when you sell so it becomes self limiting, at least for me.

 

[AeroFan_07]

Ok so I'll take a run at this now. I went back and re-read the original post so I could more clearly discern what the questions behind the questions might be. As I read & understand it, it's coming down to how, and if we choose to pursue balance in our lives and how do we define the term "out of balance."

Let me say first off that friends and family of mine think that the jacket collection portion of my life is indeed a bit out of balance. Perhaps this is true however I've never "owed" money on any of them. They are all just bought outright, like everything else in my life except my house itself. And like any Iowa person would tell you, I'm working hard to get that paid for as soon as possible too.

So back to the question, am I out of balance in this area? How do I draw the line? I see it from this perspective. If I own, collect, buy & sell a few jackets a year, wear the ones I have a little more than most folks might, and enjoy each one while occassionally finding another one I am tempted to trade for or buy outright, I am most likely a collector. If however I spend every waking hour seeking after, longing for, and deeply desiring yet another jacket as I feel I'm not complete without it, I am probably an addict.

This is how people wind up in rehab, however I would not want to imply that anyone here needs to go that far at all. If gambling (to use an example) become so life controlling, that I have thoughts of how to make that next big score and I am constantly seeking the next casino to go win it big at, I am also likely in a pattern of addiction.

I will admit that this is where a community such as this one helps. We can see each other's blind spots, and occassionally we even call them out. It's a help when someone asks me the question of why I would sell something that I deeply wanted to buy. While there may indeed be many valid reasons, such as fiances or that the fit is just off. Or this accountability may cause me to re-think my decision and consider a different path, maybe even contentment with what I already have. I for one appreciate this feedback and find it helpful, not an intrusion.

So all that to say, I need balance and focus in life. As Steve Jobs said and I often need reminded: Focus is about saying no.

 

[feltfan]

I enjoy reading about austerity and self-control from people here who I know have more top end leather jackets than the average
person could imagine owning. It's a matter of scale.

For some of us, I think, we need to get a lot of jackets or hats or watches just to learn about them, about vintage quality, or about
what works for us, before scaling down to what we really need or deciding we have enough (or close to enough...).

 

[GHT]

Leather jackets are my hookers and sports cars are my blow.

Compliments to you on a brilliant topic and what a fascinating read the insight of Loungers to this subject has been.
From someone who has lived, as a child, in a rented home with no central heating, one single coal fire was our heating, no fitted carpets, no refridgerater, no phone, no TV until about 1958, no double glazing, minimal garden, covered in weeds, and so on and so on. To the expensive riverside home that I live in today, mortgage free, I can honestly say, I'm more than happy with where I was at the time, and with whatever I had. Horses for courses.
My mantra has always been: If you haven't got the cash, you can't afford it.

 

[Sloan1874]

It's an interesting topic because I think most people don't really 'know' that they have a line until they absolutely hit it. I suppose it's similar to 'buyer's remorse' but I find myself recoiling thinking 'even if I could afford this, would I buy it?'.
Thankfully, I don't have this problem with things like watches, that's one thing I've never been smitten with. As I've said in the past, when I first looked at some serious high-end pieces in an Edinburgh watch seller, I thought somebody had put the wrong amount of zeroes after the comma!
The first Aero I bought came after doing yards of research on it, and still took a bit of hard thinking before deciding to go for it. Up until then, I had not spent more than a couple of hundred of pounds on a jacket (if that!). Had I crossed 'my line' at the time? Probably not, but there were still a few internal trade-offs and justification to myself before I got to saying yes. The thing is, once of you've hit a heavy ticket purchase, it shifts the bar on a lot of other things: suddenly £200+ doesn't seem quite so unreasonable for a pair of boots or £150 for a pair of jeans - it's all relative.
That said, I think I found my limit with Good Wear. It's took a good two or three years of reading, research and appreciation to get to the point where I didn't flinch (too much) when I pressed 'buy'. I have kind of stuck it to the back of mind since then, without too much kvetching, though the pound's southward journey has depressed me.
With reference to the watch thing, I should add that my one weak spot would be a Panerai, as I've always coveted ownership of one of those!

 

[Superfluous]

When I started this topic, I honestly had no idea where it would go. It has, and continues to be, a fascinating read.

As many here know, I am sober 33 years. I mention this because it illustrates a key component of my personality -- I am an addict. Drugs ravaged my life for several years and ultimately resulted in my incarceration. Although I was able to eradicate drugs from my life, and continue to so do daily, I have not been able to cure the addictive component of my personality. Fortunately, my subsequent addictions were not illegal, did not harm me or those I love, and I never spent more than I could afford on my subsequent addictions. That said, I am the first to admit that I spent ridiculous amounts on my addictions that defy rational justification. Moreover, many of my addictions follow a similar path as my prior drug use. With drugs, I started by smoking pot and vigorously asserted that I would never use anything more. As my drug use progressed, I came up with inane justifications to use other drugs and, before you knew it, I was a human garbage disposal. Similarly, with watches, I started with pieces that cost less than $10,000. However, as my watch addiction progressed, I kept moving the bar higher and higher until I was buying watches that cost as much as a house. Likewise, with poker, I started with a 2/4 limit game. I then moved to a $100 no limit, then $500 no limit, then $2,000 no limit, then no cap games. Two nights ago, I played in a game with enough money on the table between all the players to buy a house. My sports car / horsepower addiction has taken a similar path. There was a time when 300 horsepower was more than adequate. My most recent car had 610 HP from the factory, but I had to add a supercharger to reach 800 HP. My addictions also include several types of clothing, including leather jackets, jeans, flannels, t-shirts, sneakers, etc etc etc. Thus, I freely admit my addictive personality.

FWIW, I keep a "play fund" for all of my addictions that I fund through my poker play (yes, I actually make money). I use this play fund for all car modifications, clothing purchases, watch purchases, etc. This way, my wife does not complain that my expenditures are taxing our finances. To the contrary, she loves that I never use our regular funds on clothing or car mods. I don't use any of my business/work/investment earnings to fund these purchases.

Although I have never cured my addictive personality, I have kicked certain individual addictions. For example, I no longer use drugs. Likewise, I no longer buy watches. By comparison, leather jackets are considerably more affordable.

The foregoing works for me . . . for now. That said, I will likely have to continue adjusting and fine tuning my approach in the future, particularly when I retire.

Leather jackets are my hookers and sports cars are my blow.

A leather jacket wraps around you and keeps you warm. A sports car gets your heart beating fast and your adrenaline pumping.

 

[MisterCairo]

There are two things I don't buy for investment purposes - cars and wine.

I buy them because I enjoy them or need them.

Wine fulfils both requirements...

 

[Superfluous]

It's an interesting topic because I think most people don't really 'know' that they have a line until they absolutely hit it.

Good point!

The thing is, once of you've hit a heavy ticket purchase, it shifts the bar on a lot of other things: suddenly £200+ doesn't seem quite so unreasonable for a pair of boots or £150 for a pair of jeans - it's all relative.

Thats the progression. Its "just pot" and, before you know it, you are dropping acid.

That said, I think I found my limit with Good Wear.

Lol. Thats like saying I found my limit with Ferrari.

With reference to the watch thing, I should add that my one weak spot would be a Panerai, as I've always coveted ownership of one of those!

I LOVE Panerai watches. I used to be very active in the Panerai community (traveled to New York for a get-together of Panerai collectors). They are great watches.

 

[Bern1]

I must say that I also have an addictive personality and that does spill over into the jacket area. However in the last few years I seem to be able to curb the urge to acquire more with a little more success. I am not sure what that is due to entirely. Perhaps it is a result of having more areas of interest than I used to to. However, I prefer to think that I have acquired some wisdom and restraint!

 

[Superfluous]

I have acquired some wisdom and restraint!

What is "restraint"?

 

[Sloan1874]

Around here? It's having two Real McCoy's and a Himel in your online shopping basket and putting one of them back...

 

[MikeKardec]

I'm pretty good at having no debt (except house) and having some money to put away.

BUT ... I'm a sucker for "education," the process of discovering what is the thing I will really appreciate the most, the thing that is really the best for me. I'd happily go right to the quality item if I knew what it was but always seem to navigate my way rather than simply arrive. It's that navigating that leads to wasted time and money.