Is Hat Ettiquette Obsolete?

[Mr Oldschool]

I don't think we're quite the same thing as that at all (though the worst is people who think we're hipsters because some of our number sport facial hair. Fighting talk....).

My apologies for misunderstanding your reference. I stand corrected.

 

[Mr Oldschool]

I'm 56 and have worn hats since I was a child continuously. My etiquette has been molded by admonitions from elders and by being uncomfortable because I removed a hat when the peers didn't. I remove a fedora much more frequently than a western.
I will say that I wear mostly western hats. Western hat wear is way more about keeping them on outside in the wind than taking them off inside where there is usually none.

Handling a hat wears it out. Handling it with dirty hands soils it. By its very nature a hat is an object that is for your head.

Good point. My western hat has a few spots on it from handling it when my hands weren't clean enough. I have yet to clean it, but I use it for work outside such as tractoring, so I expect it to get a little dirty at times.

 

[suitedcboy]

To answer the original poster... Yes hat etiquette is obsolete. There may be pockets, such as the military, where forms are practiced. However amongst the general public, it is officially dead.

It does not matter that there are folk who keep the traditions alive. To be etiquette a behavior must be expected by society at large. Since society at large is largely oblivious to hat etiquette (and some may argue any form of etiquette) there is no expectation. Without expectation it is simply a personal mannerism.

+1

 

[-30-]

In a Court of Law?

Graveside funeral service?

Request for a for a mortgage while in a banker's office?

Private (eastern) businessmans' club?

When did a Show of Respect become a "Personal Mannerism"?


Regards,
J T

 

[GHT]

So,,the next topic to be considered, is it acceptable etiquette to wear a classic fedora with jeans, topsiders ( no socks, of course!) and what is quite possibly nothing more than a dyed black Tshirt.?

Yes you are, but not if you wear, open toed, Jesus sandals. That will incur the wrath of the 'Must Be Correct,' fashion police.

 

[VetPsychWars]

When did a Show of Respect become a "Personal Mannerism"?

When the person you're trying to show respect to is completely oblivious of your respect.

True story: I was at a friend's apartment and needed to wash my hands. I was directed to the bathroom. I asked him, "what towel do you want me to use?" and he replied, "Any of them!" and was completely flabbergasted that I would actually ask. I had to explain to him, "some people care what towel you use and I was just trying to respect you." He didn't get that based on my actions; it had to be explained.

I don't "hold doors for ladies", I "hold doors for someone immediately following" regardless of who they are. In this post feminist world, I treat a woman as an equal with respect due to any individual... and no more.

If you want to hold to some code that was obsolete twenty years ago... be my guest. Just don't expect me to follow it. I take my hat off when it seems to be a good idea to have it off. I leave it on when it seems a good idea to leave it on. I don't worry about rules... there aren't any, any more, except in certain narrow circumstances.

Tom

 

[Huertecilla]

TTo be etiquette a behavior must be expected by society at large. Since society at large is largely oblivious to hat etiquette (and some may argue any form of etiquette) there is no expectation. Without expectation it is simply a personal mannerism.

and we go back to start...

Etiquette needs only a small group. As was already mentioned and explained etiquette is BOTH inclusive and exclusive. The size of the club is irrelevant.

Hattiquette may be lost on most of US population and thus obsolete to thém, it is certainly recognised by some and as such not obsolete for thóse.
In Europe it is recognised my most if not necessarily expected/known but definitely appreciated and of usefull advantage to those who use it.

Obsolete to most does not obsolete make. Cultural poverty does not make culture obsolete, just more rare.
Let hattiquette by all means be obsolete to the mayority. As long as that does not result in the dictatorship of grey and prohibiton of colour, codemnation of manners, it all serves for them to be a more accute selection criteria for those who do value it.

Meanwhile my little multilingual expedition into hattiquette has been most informative and has improved my future hat manners, so thanks for the thread.

 

[jlee562]

and we go back to start...

Etiquette needs only a small group. As was already mentioned and explained etiquette is BOTH inclusive and exclusive. The size of the club is irrelevant.

Hattiquette may be lost on most of US population and thus obsolete to thém, it is certainly recognised by some and as such not obsolete for thóse.
In Europe it is recognised my most if not necessarily expected/known but definitely appreciated and of usefull advantage to those who use it.

Obsolete to most does not obsolete make. Cultural poverty does not make culture obsolete, just more rare.
Let hattiquette by all means be obsolete to the mayority. As long as that does not result in the dictatorship of grey and prohibiton of colour, codemnation of manners, it all serves for them to be a more accute selection criteria for those who do value it.

Meanwhile my little multilingual expedition into hattiquette has been most informative and has improved my future hat manners, so thanks for the thread.

I agree with the second half of your post, obsolete to most, does not obsolete make. In literal terms, this is true. But as a matter of general norms, hat etiquette is functionally dead.

It's like vinyl records...of course you can still find record shops if you look hard enough. And vinyl is still made for special edition pressings, but it's just not the way music is sold anymore. It's obsolete.

 

[facade]

In a Court of Law?

Graveside funeral service?

Request for a for a mortgage while in a banker's office?

Private (eastern) businessmans' club?

When did a Show of Respect become a "Personal Mannerism"?


Regards,
J T

How one chooses to show respect is a personal choice which may or may not coincide with an established etiquette.

If a person sneezes and you say "God bless you" or something similar, you have followed the accepted etiquette. If you take it a step further and hand that person a tissue, no matter how kind and considerate that gesture is, it is not an example of etiquette. There is no expectation on the person's part that you will provide them with a tissue. Without the expectation, its not part of an established etiquette.

I'm now wondering if there is any true hat etiquette at all anymore. Etiquette is a voluntary social behavior one follows to avoid giving unintended insult. When you remove your hat because an armed person of authority has ordered you to do so, the voluntary part has evaporated. That to me moves it from etiquette to an enforced dress code.

 

[suitedcboy]

We can bat this around forever. The only time NOT taking off a hat is functionally rude is when it blocks someone's view.
All other instances have to be taught and the offense taken by not removing the hat is your choice.

My expressed opinions do not mean that I do not take off my hat in many circumstances. I guess my point is all the indignance over it is to me strange.

 

[hatguy1]

How one chooses to show respect is a personal choice which may or may not coincide with an established etiquette..

I hate to enter this fray, but I'm just curious; based in that standard how would the recipient of the respect know theyre being shown respect?


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[Huertecilla]

In this post feminist world,

There are still a LOT of women, perhaps more in Europe than in the US, who appreciate courtuous behavior. It is the personal freedom of a feminist to not appreciate it. It infringes mý freedom if she expresses that I should not do it.
It is like shaved legs. I have not the léast issue with that; that is her freedom. I will simply not bed the lady; that is my freedom.
The nice thing about personal freedom is that it makes social behaviour like a multi-facetted diamond.
Let perceived higher morals not lead to oppression of other choices. Adapting to post feminist mayority views as if that were law help the oppressive nature of it. That does not do the emancipation of women any good at all.

´My´ gf is a VERY emancipated, capable, successfull woman who is totally not feminist and she greatly enjoys men being courtuous, chivalrous; likes feeling appreciated for her feminity AS WELL as for her being a capable person.
I think any man who omits the former misses out on an important fact of social life; you get what you reward.

 

[facade]

I hate to enter this fray, but I'm just curious; based in that standard how would the recipient of the respect know theyre being shown respect?


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They don't always. If you walk around doffing your hat to ladies, even if you mean it to show respect, how many are going to understand that gesture? If you are following an established etiquette, then most are going to understand your meaning. Outside of that its hit or miss. That's the point of etiquette, to establish a uniform understanding of acceptable behavior.

 

[Huertecilla]

I hate to enter this fray, but I'm just curious; based in that standard how would the recipient of the respect know theyre being shown respect?


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If I behave courtuous and the recipient doesn´t get that or responds adversely than my intention was still genuinely respectfull, meant níce.
If thát is not appreciated then imo that woman is not a nice person.
I have a personal lema in dutch for that:
Van valse wijven,
moet je verre blijven.
Meaning that one´s courtuous behaviour has resulted in a valuable negative selection.

Sent from our couch using the gf´s laptop.

 

[Huertecilla]

That's the point of etiquette, to establish a uniform understanding of acceptable behavior.

Euh, yes, but that is fundamentally incomplete. that is where this topic time and again splits up in misunderstandings.
The ´uniform acceptable´ does NOT imply that the group needs be large or mayority.
Etiquette is also selective and exclusive.
Because hats are no longer worn by the mayority the understanding of hattiquette has shifted to smaller group although good hat manners are more widely understood than hats are worn.
At least here in Europe the VAST mayority of women above 30 understand and appreciate doffing a hat as positive courtuous.

 

[jlee562]

There are still a LOT of women, perhaps more in Europe than in the US, who appreciate courtuous behavior. It is the personal freedom of a feminist to not appreciate it. It infringes mý freedom if she expresses that I should not do it.
It is like shaved legs. I have not the léast issue with that; that is her freedom. I will simply not bed the lady; that is my freedom.
The nice thing about personal freedom is that it makes social behaviour like a multi-facetted diamond.
Let perceived higher morals not lead to oppression of other choices. Adapting to post feminist mayority views as if that were law help the oppressive nature of it. That does not do the emancipation of women any good at all.

´My´ gf is a VERY emancipated, capable, successfull woman who is totally not feminist and she greatly enjoys men being courtuous, chivalrous; likes feeling appreciated for her feminity AS WELL as for her being a capable person.
I think any man who omits the former misses out on an important fact of social life; you get what you reward.

Can you move beyond shaven legs for just a moment? Like I said so many pages back, that's not what feminism encapsulates in this day and age, whether we call it post-feminism or not.

It's centrally the idea that women don't need or want to be treated differently then men. As someone said a page or two back, you don't hold the door open because you see a lady, you hold the door open for the person behind you because it's the courteous thing to do. If you see someone struggling with a heavy parcel, it's courteous to offer help. If you see a lady with a parcel who's not struggling with it, it's rude to offer help to her simply because she's a woman.

Of those hat etiquette rules that applied to "show respect" or "courtesy" to a woman, most, if not all of those, will be not be regarded as such in the modern day. This is what I was alluding to with the discussion from jezebel.com in the first place.

 

[Mr Oldschool]

How one chooses to show respect is a personal choice which may or may not coincide with an established etiquette.

If a person sneezes and you say "God bless you" or something similar, you have followed the accepted etiquette. If you take it a step further and hand that person a tissue, no matter how kind and considerate that gesture is, it is not an example of etiquette. There is no expectation on the person's part that you will provide them with a tissue. Without the expectation, its not part of an established etiquette.

I'm now wondering if there is any true hat etiquette at all anymore. Etiquette is a voluntary social behavior one follows to avoid giving unintended insult. When you remove your hat because an armed person of authority has ordered you to do so, the voluntary part has evaporated. That to me moves it from etiquette to an enforced dress code.

Succinct. :eusa_clap

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

I have only had one man doff his hat to me and I'm sure he did it because I was wearing a hat as well. When he did it, I was so caught off guard that I didn't know what I was supposed to do next if anything. I simply smiled and said "Thank you". At the time I didn't even know it was called "doffing" LOL. These days I would welcome it though...I think it's cute actually.

 

[facade]

Euh, yes, but that is fundamentally incomplete. that is where this topic time and again splits up in misunderstandings.
The ´uniform acceptable´ does NOT imply that the group needs be large or mayority.
Etiquette is also selective and exclusive.
Because hats are no longer worn by the mayority the understanding of hattiquette has shifted to smaller group although good hat manners are more widely understood than hats are worn.
At least here in Europe the VAST mayority of women above 30 understand and appreciate doffing a hat as positive courtuous.

I can only speak for the US.

I agree that etiquette can be limited to smaller groups to a degree. But to be etiquette it has to involve people outside your own personal circle of family and friends. The only examples I can think of where hat etiquette may actually exist are in religious sects and I'm not even sure of that since I don't know their ways well enough. Outside of those its all forced codes of conduct/dress which does not qualify as etiquette.

 

[hatguy1]

That's the point of etiquette, to establish a uniform understanding of acceptable behavior.

Agreed.



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