Is "Boys/Men Only" too Taboo?

[John Boyer]

My, oldest daughter has been in both a co-ed high school and an all female high school. In our case, my daughter excelled academically, socially and personally in the gender specific (female) high school option as opposed to the co-ed option.

In my opinion, the primary reasons for this are twofold: 1) she did not have the obvious boy/girl relationship-type distractions common in a co-ed environment and--most importantly--2) the female school had a “top-to-bottom” (I.e. board, superintendent, principals, teachers, &/c.) “corporate” (unifying) culture. In other words, the school created and enforced a non-negotiable atmosphere that reinforced that the school is the students “work-place”. Expectations of performance, adherence to school values and the respectable treatment of fellow students and school personnel, in and out of school, was very high; as would be expected from any successful employee in any responsible work environment.

However, I think the latter—structuring schools more like a “work place”— with a unifying culture—need not be exclusive, of course, to gender specific education. There are many fine co-ed educational options (private and public) that have successfully accomplished this rather difficult, but extremely important, objective.

My $.02 worth…….

John

 

[DerMann]

most importantly--2) the female school had a “top-to-bottom” (I.e. board, superintendent, principals, teachers, &/c.) “corporate” (unifying) culture. In other words, the school created and enforced a non-negotiable atmosphere that reinforced that the school is the students “work-place”. Expectations of performance, adherence to school values and the respectable treatment of fellow students and school personnel, in and out of school, was very high; as would be expected from any successful employee in any responsible work environment.

However, I think the latter—structuring schools more like a “work place”— with a unifying culture—need not be exclusive, of course, to gender specific education. There are many fine co-ed educational options (private and public) that have successfully accomplished this rather difficult, but extremely important, objective.

Sorry to disagree with you, John, but I have to say that schools should most definitely not be considered work places.

You go to work to make money, you go to school to learn. The stereotype of the poor college students persists because you don't earn (much) money during college. You don't report your learnings to the IRS every year, do you?

As such, in an environment where you get to know your professor personally (e.g. eating dinner at his or her house or attending events together) and keeping a personal relationship with him or her over the years will not only allow you to learn much more information and harbour a deep passion for knowledge, but also provide you with valuable networking resources. A professor who knew you intimately for four years will provide a much better reference for a possible job than somebody who watches over you to make sure you're doing your busy work.

I am lucky enough to be able to attend such an institution, and friends of mine who attend enormous state schools will never be able to make such academic ties.

Also, on a completely off topic remark, the business world is not one I hope to be part of. Over the years, I've watched many airline safety briefing videos (the ones you watch while you taxi). Early-ish 90s, the people on the aircraft were "people." Turn of the millennium, they were "passengers." Recently, and not only in airlines, people are now being referred to as "customers." What sort of society do we live in where people are only valued for the money they spend?

 

[John Boyer]

Sorry to disagree with you, John, but I have to say that schools should most definitely not be considered work places.

...What sort of society do we live in where people are only valued for the money they spend?

DerMann,

I think we agree more than you think. I was not intending to strictly equate "corporate" and "work place" to business/commerce. Admittedly, these are terms of my own trade. My experience in the aforementioned example was referring to the success of people, in this case HS students, working together towards a unifying goal (corporate culture) in the forum of a class room/school (work place); under good, consistent leadership. This would include business, academics, church, volunteer services, family units, &/c. I went on to say that I thought this successful experience was not related to "gender".

I would also agree that most "transactions" don't involve money. A teacher and student are each others customer; employees working together are each others customer; the family unit are each others customer; people serving others are each others customer. It is not all about spending money but, in most cases, spending "yourself". John

 

[reetpleat]

There are a number of issues in the question. One is about the actual way schooling is performed. These days, many schools are much more geared towards the feminine. i am talking more in general nature, but it seems to line up with actual gender most of the time. if a young boy is able to play at recess, not have to sit still all the time, not have to worry about being a boy, he will be better able to learn. This could be possible in an all boys school more easily maybe. Likewise, if a girl is raised in an environment more geared towards the more feminine traits, it might be better. Further, without the boys to suppress her tendency to speak out, get involved etc she may perform better. It is not a given, but often, by the nature of societal dynamics, it happens. Minorities or girls and young women, in an environment free of the dominant group in our culture, often perform better. That is why there is perhaps, the need for black or all female schools, groups, clubs, etc. The equivilant, a white school or all boys school is different. I guess I could see the case for an all boys school, so the school could be better geared towards boys habits. But it would be hard to make the case for an all white school. I suppose, on an intellectual level, it could be done. But I sure am not going there. (I am of Mexican descent by the way, so I wouldn't even want to)

And that brings me to my next point. The complaint about all male schools, or all male clubs (such as an all male business group) or an all white organization, is that they may well be excluding people from access to things of value such as knowledge, political power, or business connections. I believe it was a supreme court decision that did away with gender segregated business clubs because they denied women the right to business networking.)

So, while there may be some value to segregated education, it seems to be in society's best interests to make sure they are not harmful to the excluded groups.

 

[ShoreRoadLady]

Different people need different types of learning environments; I can see co-ed being good for some, and not so good for others. It really just depends. But that's why we have different types of private schools.

BTW, some majors end up being almost exclusively same-sex by default. Take mine, for instance - fashion design. With classes being about 98% female, that's nearly equivalent to a gender-segregated school!

 

[Lokar]

I'm not so certain which would be better. I know that when I was at school, the boys (myself included) would sometimes slack on schoolwork / homework because we didn't want to be seen as "geeky" by the girls, but on the other side, with children spending more and more time sitting at home playing video games or watching television, if they don't interact with the opposite gender at school they'll have a very warped image of how they actually are.

However, I can imagine many schools (and many backwards headmasters / teachers) making sure the best teachers teach the boys for "manly" subjects, and the girls will get the best teachers for "girly" subjects, and that would be far worse than having mixed gender, so I think if I had to choose I'd say segregated schools would cause more problems than they would solve.

 

[Lena_Horne]

I was thinking about the various comments this afternoon, and muddled though my head may be, I wondered about the military. While I personally would love to go back in time to join the WAVES, I understand why women were eventually permitted to serve in a fully integrated military body. I also understand that there's a current limit on particular duty (barring emergency or extenuating circumstances) that normally prevents women from serving on the front line. I've wondered if that too will eventually end and could that lead to a draft for women as well (I doubt it though, the same debate was present during the Korean War as Sylvia Plath debated in her journal some fifty-odd years ago). I admittedly wouldn't care for it due to my own intensely felt but easily debatable feelings toward gender roles, but is our (often) old-fashioned way of thinking really practical in the modern world?

That does indeed apply to more than just the military or schooling. I was recently watching the Duggar family on TLC and their oldest son was getting married. Never mind the fact that he's twenty and he's never (his choice) kissed his fiancée, but he chose to court her. And I mean really court her. Asked her father for her hand in marriage, abstained from touching her beyond hand-holding and they maintained (is that the right word?) a chaperone until they were wed. While all of this both intrigues and disturbs me, I indeed wondered if that sort of old-style courtship would be possible outside of their community, and were they setting themselves up for disaster afterward? While I see value in the old way of attending débutante parties and seeking the approval of family members and hardly touching and such, is it honestly realistic to expect such today?

I suppose all of this (schooling, military, debuts, etc.) boils down to maintaining separate worlds for the sexes until marriage brought them together. I can't imagine society moving back toward more formality without a cultural shift equal or greater than that experienced during the 1960s-70s but I can't imagine anything but total war making it possible.

Golly, now I'm blabbering. Thoughts on my own random thoughts?

*click*



L_H

 

[Undertow]

I think this is a very interesting discussion. Bump!

Anyone have further thoughts on this?

 

[Puzzicato]

I personally did much better at an all-girls school than at co-ed schools, but it isn't comparing like with like because it was just a much better school. If I had been at a co-ed school that was also academically challenging, interested in the pastoral care of the students and socially welcoming, I may have done well there too.

Some of the people I grew up with who had a same-sex education all the way through (particularly those who didn't have siblings of the opposite sex) had a bit of trouble adapting to university life and academic competition from the opposite sex.

 

[reetpleat]

Might offend some. I hope not. i am in favor of all black schools, all women schools etc. As I think it can be valuable for a group to be educated absent the dominant group, which may have a detrimental effect on their participation.

However, do not approve of all male, or all white groups for above mentioned reasons. If the dominant group can exclude others, it deprives others of access to important participation.

Now, should an all black school allow a white person in? or a women's school allow men in. I don't think so. can you make the argument that these schools teach something the white male is missing? Maybe.

And what about black male schools?

No easy answers here folks.

I hae heard of a law school that had a special tutoring service for minorities to help them get through, that was not available to white students. that is a problem. It should be geared towards all students, but large enough to make sure every minority and white student gets the help they need. Why would we not want to help a student get through law school. but you can see the obvious problem here.

 

[Mr Vim]

It's a sticky wicket... no doubt.

I mean is this just schools we are talking about? I've seen salons that are, well, all woman salons. I walked in one by accident and felt very out of place because they were staring. And then the gal at the counter told me "we don't do men's hair."

And there are all male barber shops... where women walk in and get told "we can cut your hair, but we don't know how and you won't like it" as politely as possible.

These are both personal experiences I have had, and honestly I think the men were more polite than the women when explaining the exclusivity.

 

[Bourbon Guy]

I keep coming back to the original poster. Outside looking in. Amazing.

I have been saying for years that if we ever figure out who it is who has been deliberately (going all the way back to reconsruction) pitting black against white to preserve their control over all of us, they will have some serious hell to pay.

 

[Yeps]

I went to an all boys high school with an all male teaching staff (although the school was really run by the two front-office ladies), and I think that I am the better for it. For one thing, I don't think I would have been able to focus all that well in a co-ed school (years 14-18 are very distractible), and to be honest, I have always interacted better with girls/women than guys (my age. I generally get along better with teachers, on account of people my age being dull and immature [not to say that I am mature, but more so than some of my peers]), and my school helped me learn how to interact properly with men too.

I love our reunions, which generally consist of a bonfire/cookout where we all sit around, have a drink, tell stories and smoke cigars. I don't think I would have developed the same kind of community in a co-ed environment.

That said, I am now in a co-ed University, in a predominantly female field, and am doing fine there too.

I also had a friend who did horribly at my high school, then transfered to a co-ed school and did great. It really depends on the person.

 

[Land-O-LakesGal]

Different people need different types of learning environments; I can see co-ed being good for some, and not so good for others. It really just depends. But that's why we have different types of private schools.

I totally agree. I think this is going to vary from individual to individual, from school to school, and even classroom to classroom.

 

[SGT Rocket]

research

There is reach that says boys and girls lean better separately, and research that says the opposite. Growing up, I would have learned much more in a boys only environment.

I think it should be the parents choice as to where to send their children, not the State's. Who knows the individual child better? The parent, or the State who had run numerous studies. If your child is the statistical outlier, you are done for. If you think your child would do better in a single sex environment, send them, if not don't.

I'm also for school vouchers and for school choice, but that is political so we won't go there.

 

[Yeps]

but that is political so we won't go there.

Is praeteritio allowed? [grins]

 

[MissHannah]

I'm amazed to hear people talking about 'natural' differences between boys and girls as if it were fact.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/15/girls-boys-think-same-way

Just as an aside, I went to mixed state schools, colleges and university throughout my education - some were good, some were rubbish - but I learned how to operate in and be part of a society that included people my own age from all walks of life. And ultimately that has served me better in my life as an adult than any of my qualifications.

 

[John in Covina]

Co-ed= I have heard that schools that are divided into same sex classes tends to have less problems in class especially when you get to the teen years. However it is important that people are able to become socially adept and having mixed company seems to facilitate that social education. So it may be best to present a mix of situations.

 

[Yeps]

Co-ed= I have heard that schools that are divided into same sex classes tends to have less problems in class especially when you get to the teen years. However it is important that people are able to become socially adept and having mixed company seems to facilitate that social education. So it may be best to present a mix of situations.

Yeah, my social development was definitely warped... spent from 9-3:30 in an all male environment, then went over to the local all-girls school for theatre until 8 or so (later the week of the show)

 

[Chas]

There have always been the need for oppurtunities for both sexes to congregate in a same-sex situations or environments; I think that it is vital. There should be men-only clubs and organizations, and visa-versa. I was fairly active in a men's group for awhile during my "Iron John" phase, and I had some pretty positive experiences of that. The women that were connected to the men in the group respected it and it worked. I think that it's good for kids to congregate from time to time in same-sex peer group situations as well.

In many societies it is the men that initiate boys into manhood; the women do the same for the girls. We could learn a lot from that.

To suggest that children be denied the experience of being in a same sex group for a significant part of their upbringing is narrow-minded, to say the least.