IRVIN NUTS?...the ULTIMATE thread for those who love 'em!

[Spitfire]

Just have patience on e-bay Sam. They do turn up.
But I strongly advice to get one before the "Dambusters hype" .

 

[SamMarlowPI]

Just have patience on e-bay Sam. They do turn up.
But I strongly advice to get one before the "Dambusters hype" .

oh great...Irvins are almost out of reach now but when that film releases they might as well be on Mars...guess i better buckle down and search.

 

[aswatland]

S Lewis's was a small store run by Sammy Lewis at 29 Carburton street, London W1. A 1930s catalogue I have states that S Lewis are a 'Motor Engineers and Government Surplus stores'. From the 50's onwards they basically sold D Lewis/Lewis Leathers motorcycle goods with S Lewis's labels applied internally and finally 'allied' with D Lewis Ltd/Lewis Leathers in 1967 the Carburton st shop then became a D Lewis Ltd outlet.
The thing that set D Lewis Ltd apart was that they were 'actual makers' and presumably supplied various companies with goods which would be labelled as necessary. The DGL name still remains a mystery though.

Looking at a 1936 advert in Flight Magazine S.Lewis claim to be the manufacturers of flying clothing. They also say they hold government contracts to make flying gear.

 

[Aviakid]

S Lewis

Andrew, you are correct, the earliest S Lewis advert I can find that states they were a manufacturer dates from 19 Nov 1924, they also stocked an enormous amount of Gov't surplus, e.g. 2000 Sidcot suits! My understanding is that Nathan Jones was the main business force behind D Lewis and he set up the manufacturing arm of the company in the early days, perhaps he also supplied S Lewis's at the same time, the stock of both shops was certainly very similar. N Jones had outlets in Sheffield, Liverpool and Birmingham too, these were all renamed D Lewis in the 1960's.

 

[Alan Eardley]

Yes, that's what I understand too. I have seen a discussion (was it in one of Rin Tanaka's books?) of the relationship between the D Lewis and S Lewis concerns. I can't remember without looking it up, but I remember I wasn't convinced (I think the author was given the information by the present proprietor of Lewis Leathers). I think Godfrey Lewis was an accountant or administrator who joined Jones in the D Lewis company.

It's worth noting that if D Lewis were associated with DGL, they would have very limited manufacturing capability in London (at Gt. Portland St.), so why make a point of London in their company title? The same point could apply to Ensum and Robinson, who AFIIK made saddles and horse blankets from a small premises in Whitechapel. The suggestion has been made that these companies were 'fronts' for a network of sub-contractors, who actually did the manufacturing.

This makes sense - when Nuffield was in charge of Spitfire production, this was certainly the case. So prevalent was sub-contracting (adding which a policy of dispersed production was in force) that Leo McInstry's book 'Spitfire; Birth of a Legend' describes how control of manufacture of that vital 'plane was almost lost at one stage through the complexities of subcontracting until Beaverbrook took over and sorted things out.

How interesting it would be to have the time to explore this further!

Alan

Andrew, you are correct, the earliest S Lewis advert I can find that states they were a manufacturer dates from 19 Nov 1924, they also stocked an enormous amount of Gov't surplus, e.g. 2000 Sidcot suits! My understanding is that Nathan Jones was the main business force behind D Lewis and he set up the manufacturing arm of the company in the early days, perhaps he also supplied S Lewis's at the same time, the stock of both shops was certainly very similar. N Jones had outlets in Sheffield, Liverpool and Birmingham too, these were all renamed D Lewis in the 1960's.

 

[nightandthecity]

I think one of the main problems we face (for example, in dating Irvins by design/fittings) is that we don't really know how many manufacturers were actually involved in their production. And obviously, the more makers, the more variety.

Back in the 1980s I used to sell a lot of stuff to a chap who had an aeronautica stand in an antiques centre off the Kings Road...I forget his name. Anyway, he told me that an elderly Jewish tailor near where he lived had told him that he made Irvins during WW2. This was in a small east-end workshop, which may give some hint of the scale of sub-contracting. Also of interest re "zip dating": this tailor still had a stock of early pattern non-AM DOT zips.

Also of relevance, and also back in the 80s: I got into conversation with an elderly RAF veteran in a bus queue in Leeds who had commented on my jacket. he told me that in the war he had worked on making Irvins out of scrap jackets and trousers - this was in a large government-run installation (I think down in the south midlands area). This made perfect sense to me as I already knew that the USAAF had similar establishments renovating and recycling jackets and other flight gear. Such establishments could, I think, account for many of the "1943 pattern" multi panel Irvins (also anomolies like apparently early-pattern jackets with 1944 and 1945 labels, after production was supposed to have ceased).

 

[Alan Eardley]

I agree. I worked for Belstaff in the 70s and was told stories by some of the people who had worked there in WW2 that they had made (or perhaps substantially repaired) 'Irvin' jackets in Stoke-on-Trent. As they clearly knew something about them and examined mine with some knowledge I have no reason to doubt the 'truth of the tale'.

Alan

 

[Smithy]

Although not an Irvin expert or historian by any stretch of the imagination I think it is worthwhile pointing out that subcontracting was rife during the war in all industries. Various ministries and official organisations would have orders which were needed to be filled by such and such a date, and obviously due to the necessity of fulfilling wartime orders, subcontracting was the only way manufacturers and suppliers could meet their schedules.

I would very much imagine that orders for Irvins were also often fulfilled with the help of subcontractors.

 

[Windsock]

My thoughts on the subject. Some may not agree.

Other manufacturers of Thermally Insulated Flying Jackets (known commonly as "Irvins") continue to pop up and hopefully will continue to and surprise. Andrew S you recently bought an Irvin with a label which stated it was made in Tel Aviv of all places (Lambskin Ltd. Of Tel-Aviv, under contract no. L1/8/L1/303/L) and I recall someone quoting a manufacturer of "Irvin" trousers from New Zealand. I've often thought that as with flying helmets and sidcots Irvins may have also been produced in Canada where thousands of Aircrew were trained under the EATS (Empire Air Training Scheme) though i've not personally heard of any. BTW Andrew, when you receive that suit please post some shots of the labels and any details of the jacket which appear to depart from the standard well known details. Makes one wonder why they were made there...

It's great to hear these anecdotes and it's very important that they are written down and shared. How all this could ever be organized into something more substantial is mind boggling but a tempting thought. It's a fascinating subject and the facts are tantalizingly probably not verifiable which makes it even more engaging.

Unlike the relatively well documented contract list and features immediately identifiable of the Type A-2 jacket it's pretty obvious from all of these stories, the lack of written historical fact and our own observations that attempting to definitively and objectively state fact is next to impossible and should be avoided at all times in all forums IMHO.

As a result it's obvious why Mick Prodger only lightly touched on the subject in his works as much of the facts have been lost as a result of not being properly documented at a time when the oral history if not the written fact could have been properly recorded.

I would love to see a beautiful coffee table book produced on the topic along the lines of the Maguires series on the A-2 and these jackets deserve such representation. The problem I see with any published "book" would be in the difficulty of writing an historically correct and factual description of the numerous variations of the jacket and components.

As i've said before aside from handling dated physical examples from which to create a trail of dates and shifts in the design, it would be ideal to dredge up copies of the Air Ministry orders, patterns or patents where these things were specified or desribed or prototypes photographed. I have had a little (very) myself from this great distance but there is info out there i'm sure.

For such a publication to be totally credible it would need this kind of documentation otherwise would always suffer criticism of being a subjective review of beautiful things. In any arena like many I feel uncomfortable hearing definitive statements about subjects lacking in factual evidence.

Having said that I feel the beautifuly simple but evocatively designed coffee table volume is probably the best general direction for such a book, as it would simply describe the known and identifiable, would be honest in its limitations and could be simply a reference collection of Commonwealth jacket porn. The fatter the better.

In reality the Art of the fliight jacket books are possibly the best model for such a project as they do not try to define by detail they just let the pictures do the talking.

If and when the Project moves to a realm of possibility count me in as a contributer as well.

Andrew

 

[Alan Eardley]

Smithy,

I agree. I suspect that things were even more chaotic WRT flying clothing than with 'the hardware'. In the RAF before WW2 clothing was looked upon rather differently than 'equipment'. Officers were expected to provide their own uniforms upon commission and some flying suits (e.g. 'prestige suits') were private purchase too, subject to conforming to a general pattern. Helmets, masks and boots were 'equipment' and were issued, as were some flying suits (e.g. 1930 Pattern suits). So, in the re-armament period flying suits would probably be a 'grey area' - a tradition of private purchase clashing with the need to obtain more and more gear for personnel who did not 'fit the mold' of the pre-war commissioned officer.

It is, IMO, reasonable to suggest, as you do, that a more relaxed attitude to sub-contracting would be taken in order to 'get the goods' when this background is considered. IAC themselves were almost overwhelmed with the demand for 'bail-out' equipment (they took over the Spirella corset factory in Letchworth for parachute production) at the expense of suits. We don't know much about the production capacity of two of the other main contractors, but with the overload situation, the 'private purchase' tradition in the RAF and the policy of the AM in 1939-42 of dispersing production (e.g. 'shadow factories') I can see why large-scale subcontracting could be tolerated.

Alan

Although not an Irvin expert or historian by any stretch of the imagination I think it is worthwhile pointing out that subcontracting was rife during the war in all industries. Various ministries and official organisations would have orders which were needed to be filled by such and such a date, and obviously due to the necessity of fulfilling wartime orders, subcontracting was the only way manufacturers and suppliers could meet their schedules.

I would very much imagine that orders for Irvins were also often fulfilled with the help of subcontractors.

 

[Windsock]

I meant to post this a while back, it may lead nowhere but may be worth a try for one of you guys in the UK.

In 1965 The Pentland Group who today own such brands as Lacoste, ellesse and Speedo bought Wareings Ltd, of Wareings Suit of Northhampton fame. Is there a possibility that they have something buried in their archives relating to the Irvins they made? Might be worth a call. They may be proud of their heritage.


The Pentland Centre
Lakeside
Squires Lane
Finchley
London, Greater London N3 2QL
United Kingdom

Telephone: 44 181 346 2600
Fax: 44 181 346 2700

 

[Alan Eardley]

I agree.

My thoughts on the subject. Some may not agree.

Other manufacturers of Thermally Insulated Flying Jackets (known commonly as "Irvins") continue to pop up and hopefully will continue to and surprise. Andrew S you recently bought an Irvin with a label which stated it was made in Tel Aviv of all places (Lambskin Ltd. Of Tel-Aviv, under contract no. L1/8/L1/303/L) and I recall someone quoting a manufacturer of "Irvin" trousers from New Zealand. I've often thought that as with flying helmets and sidcots Irvins may have also been produced in Canada where thousands of Aircrew were trained under the EATS (Empire Air Training Scheme) though i've not personally heard of any. BTW Andrew, when you receive that suit please post some shots of the labels and any details of the jacket which appear to depart from the standard well known details. Makes one wonder why they were made there...

It's great to hear these anecdotes and it's very important that they are written down and shared. How all this could ever be organized into something more substantial is mind boggling but a tempting thought. It's a fascinating subject and the facts are tantalizingly probably not verifiable which makes it even more engaging.

Unlike the relatively well documented contract list and features immediately identifiable of the Type A-2 jacket it's pretty obvious from all of these stories, the lack of written historical fact and our own observations that attempting to definitively and objectively state fact is next to impossible and should be avoided at all times in all forums IMHO.

As a result it's obvious why Mick Prodger only lightly touched on the subject in his works as much of the facts have been lost as a result of not being properly documented at a time when the oral history if not the written fact could have been properly recorded.

I would love to see a beautiful coffee table book produced on the topic along the lines of the Maguires series on the A-2 and these jackets deserve such representation. The problem I see with any published "book" would be in the difficulty of writing an historically correct and factual description of the numerous variations of the jacket and components.

As i've said before aside from handling dated physical examples from which to create a trail of dates and shifts in the design, it would be ideal to dredge up copies of the Air Ministry orders, patterns or patents where these things were specified or desribed or prototypes photographed. I have had a little (very) myself from this great distance but there is info out there i'm sure.

For such a publication to be totally credible it would need this kind of documentation otherwise would always suffer criticism of being a subjective review of beautiful things. In any arena like many I feel uncomfortable hearing definitive statements about subjects lacking in factual evidence.

Having said that I feel the beautifuly simple but evocatively designed coffee table volume is probably the best general direction for such a book, as it would simply describe the known and identifiable, would be honest in its limitations and could be simply a reference collection of Commonwealth jacket porn. The fatter the better.

In reality the Art of the fliight jacket books are possibly the best model for such a project as they do not try to define by detail they just let the pictures do the talking.

If and when the Project moves to a realm of possibility count me in as a contributer as well.

Andrew

 

[Aviakid]

Yes, that's what I understand too. I have seen a discussion (was it in one of Rin Tanaka's books?) of the relationship between the D Lewis and S Lewis concerns. I can't remember without looking it up, but I remember I wasn't convinced (I think the author was given the information by the present proprietor of Lewis Leathers). I think Godfrey Lewis was an accountant or administrator who joined Jones in the D Lewis company.

It's worth noting that if D Lewis were associated with DGL, they would have very limited manufacturing capability in London (at Gt. Portland St.), so why make a point of London in their company title? The same point could apply to Ensum and Robinson, who AFIIK made saddles and horse blankets from a small premises in Whitechapel. The suggestion has been made that these companies were 'fronts' for a network of sub-contractors, who actually did the manufacturing.

This makes sense - when Nuffield was in charge of Spitfire production, this was certainly the case. So prevalent was sub-contracting (adding which a policy of dispersed production was in force) that Leo McInstry's book 'Spitfire; Birth of a Legend' describes how control of manufacture of that vital 'plane was almost lost at one stage through the complexities of subcontracting until Beaverbrook took over and sorted things out.

How interesting it would be to have the time to explore this further!

Alan

D Lewis had a substantial factory in the East End which was in existence pre-war, production continued there during WW2 although it is unclear exactly what was made there, presumably contracted goods for the government and private purchase (one would assume there were no civilian airmen flying in those days for obvious reasons) as well as motorcycle clothing.

Two adverts below: April 24 1929 (Est over 30 years) and another from 1944 which entices people to 'turn their kit into cash' offering best prices for used Irvine type jackets and other items (warm wear for a cold public? -or for recycling?).

 

[Windsock]

Fantastic ads, please keep them coming. These are excellent items for dating gear. I have seen similar dated 1938, and 39 for uniforms and Type B flying helmets but never for an Irvin. it would be great if you could find one- especially pre-War.

Andrew

 

[Windsock]

I agree.

I'm glad you do Alan.

 

[aswatland]

Fantastic ads, please keep them coming. These are excellent items for dating gear. I have seen similar dated 1938, and 39 for uniforms and Type B flying helmets but never for an Irvin. it would be great if you could find one- especially pre-War.

Andrew

I would recommend looking at the archives for Flight Magazine. I have found adverts for Irvin Air chute jackets from 1937 until 1939. These show the two panel jacket and trousers. Just do a Google search for Flight Mag and click the archive section and type in "Irvin flying jackets". There is no advert for Wareings, but both Lewis outlets are there.

 

[irvinsuit]

Irvinsuit Advert

Guys, I have an Irvinsuit advert dated August 9, 1939 from "The Aeroplane" magazine. It clearly shows the jacket, trousers, and Irvin helmet.
I'll get this scanned in over the Christmas holidays, however I'll need some advice regarding posting the jpg or bmp on this site.

On reflection, I'm sure that I saw an Irvin helmet on ebay a couple of years back and it was in good condition with the IAC label present. The helmet is similar to the ones currently available from ALC, Cirrus etc... Fur lined and pretty damn cool.

Hope this helps.

 

[jamespibworth@n]

Another Irvin on order!

Hi Chaps, hope you are all well.

The 35/36 Irvin: fantastic, but can’t really wear it for work, I think it deserves to be semi-retired at its age.

The 70s ALC Irvin, turns out it’s a bit small but it looks great on my girlfriend.

Still need one for work, so here’s what happened next:

Decided what was needed was a quality repro but thought it may be interesting to have a smaller collar!!

The standard 6”collars do look great but what I wanted was one that was not so intrusive but with the jacket being as close to the original as possible, this is only my personal thoughts you understand.
Eastman’s politely said No. (I completely understand)
Will at Aero said, just tell me what you want and we will make it.
So I did and he is, what a great chap!

Should be interesting?

James

P.s good to see the old adverts, thanks.

 

[ukali1066]

What price glory Irvin...a review

I recieved my What price glory Irvin today, just in time for the crisp English winter, the price was a seductive £190 including trackable UK shipping by USPS.

I had to order size 40 as that's the smallest WPG make them in...I'd have prefered a 36 or 38...yes...I'm one of the remaining WW2 sized scrawny people on earth..

But it fits ok with a couple of layers underneath.

The wool is that perfect "teddy bear" colour I was after, and is nice and curly.

The leather is flawless, a lovely rich reddish brown, the stitching very well done.

The only minor point I could find is the buckle, it feels a bit thin and rough, rather "tinny" and the pin is very sharp on the end, I'm going to dremel it smooth incase it rips the leather, you could even get a good tailor to replace the buckle if you wished.

It came with leather pulls on the sleeve zips but I cut them off as one had a malformed/loose rivet...not a big deal as they were getting in the way anyhow.

I work next to a constantly open door, so I wore it all day at work and it was very snug.

Conclusion:
If you're not made of money and fancy a damn fine Irvin repro at less than half the cost of the big boys, this is for you.
It LOOKS like an Irvin, and it KEEPS you warm, that's what matters to me

Please excuse me ruining the images of a perfectly good jacket

 

[Alan Eardley]

Guys,

Excellent stuff from all of you! It's great to be able to get together virtually like this and learn new things. I feel we are moving towards an answer to all these questions we keep asking ourselves. No-one has all the answer, but we all seem to have a part of it.

Someone in another thread was of the opinion that FL no longer contained useful or knowledgable discussions. I couldn't agree less! There are some real experts in this thread.

Alan

I would recommend looking at the archives for Flight Magazine. I have found adverts for Irvin Air chute jackets from 1937 until 1939. These show the two panel jacket and trousers. Just do a Google search for Flight Mag and click the archive section and type in "Irvin flying jackets". There is no advert for Wareings, but both Lewis outlets are there.