IRVIN NUTS?...the ULTIMATE thread for those who love 'em!

[Smithy]

My apologies Andrew!

A spot of leave would be lovely but I have no excuses, looks like the drinks are on me lads

 

[Edward]

Yes I did. British fleeces are from different breeds of sheep and are generally more robust. Maybe something to do with our UK climate as well. Hardy sheep only survive winters in the hilly parts of the UK! BTW is Swatland!

Ah ha!

(So I guess those pink sheep were likely to have been that much more manly than butcher looking US sheep after all? )

I remember reading your post about Irvins being harder wearing, but I had it in my head that this was to do with construction rather than the fleece itself. Would this mean that a repro B3 from ELC or Aero would be less hard wearing than their Irvins - or do they use the same fleeces for them all now?

 

[Windsock]

I reckon the tanning and skinning process had something to do with it too. The skin backing fleeces of US shearling appears to be quite thin in comparison to earlier Irvins (however later Irvins tend to have the thinner crinkly leather as well and also tear easily). I've owned some shocker late models and it alsmost put me off them altogether.

Aside from the preparation techniques perhaps it was desirable to have thinner skinned jackets to aid in flexibility and movement in confined spaces whilst still providing as much warmth as possible. I find the shaggy late war irvins to be warmer but less bulky than the pre-War types.

Just like the aircraft they were used in they weren't expected to be used for a long time so longevity or absolute durability wouldn't have been high on the priority list compared to keeping the wearer warm.

 

[Edward]

That makes sense - it all comes back to the design brief, really. I guess it didn't occur to anyone then that we'd all want to be wearing them this far in the future... I imagine they assumed we'd all be wearing plastic and disposable paper garments as we flew our hoverpacks.... lol

 

[ethanedwards]

Future collectors

Makes me wonder, what contemporary items of today's armed forces will have future collectors handing over their hard earned money.......... and if it's still leather and sheepskin flying jackets, will there be a sufficient body of knowledge for them to differentiate between originals and (high-end)copies?

 

[Edward]

Makes me wonder, what contemporary items of today's armed forces will have future collectors handing over their hard earned money.......... and if it's still leather and sheepskin flying jackets, will there be a sufficient body of knowledge for them to differentiate between originals and (high-end)copies?

I suspect this is why Aero, ELC etc fit their own tag under a pocket flap out of the way.... though I'm sure then (as quite possibly now) there will be people who are either ignorant or underhand and who will innocently or otherwise pass off a repro as an original. As with anything else, a determined copyist will always exist who can make something that will fool even the experts. This sort of thing has been going on for some years with vintage guitars, especially early Fenders. I expect that over time, caveat emptor will be even more important a motto than it is now.

As to future collectibles..... I'm no expert in contemporary military wear, but it seems to me that like anything else rarity will be a part of it. Those German military shirts I adore I can't see ever being collectible - simple too many of them in circulation (good for me - cheap, stylish and practical, can't beat that!). Maybe something like an officer's overcoat that is well cut, hard wearing, and can't be picked up for twnety quid in the local army surplus store? I'm not sure that there's an equivalent of the Irvin nowadays.... certainly nothing that captures the romantic image it has. In part, I expect that's down to the fact that we're far enough distanced, most of us, from the war that we didn't go thrugh it and experience the associated deprivations; certainly, my experience of the war outside of history class (and a horrific visit to Auschwitz a few years ago) is largely limited to what Hollywood chose to depict..... ( it was Steve Macqueen made me want an A2 more than anything, if I'm being honest...). I'm sure there was a fair difference between the "tally ho chaps" approach of the movies and the grim reality for those who were there. But I'm digressing.... my point is that the war period has inevitably been romanticised to some degree now in a way which later conflicts haven't as of yet - and may never be. WW2 can be viewed as fairly morally black and white - Hitler was A Bad Man and Had To Be Stopped, good triumphed in the end and all that. Without going into politics, I think it is fair to say that recent conflicts have been sufficiently controversial that, rightly or wrongly they'll never garner the warm nostalgia that the WW2 period has acquired, which is a big part, IMHO, of what gives the jackets of the time their allure. The association of Irvins with fighter pilots moreso than bombers (again with the controversy that can bring in the light of modern sensibilities) in the public mind might have something to do with their popularity - that sense of the gentleman adventurer, almost, that the stereotypical WW2 pilot image conjures up. I'm not sure that there's really the same popular perception at all nowadays - at least on this side of the Atlantic anyhow?

Course, that's just my own opinion on some factors that might affect future collectability of contemporary military kit.... it (my opinion, that is) is worth precisely what you paid for it...

 

[ethanedwards]

Collections

You have made some very interesting points there Edward, which I haven't previously considered. It makes a lot of sense expressed this way - some say
the British are more prone to 'romanticising' WW2 because although the Luftwaffe and V weapons killed so many, they didn't have to live under such a long, dreadful and wicked occupation as did so many of our European friends.

If it is given that the Irvin and A2 may be called symbols of a justified war, and we can hopefully wear and collect them without too much contention, what then is the appeal - to a great many collectors - of Wehrmacht and other German armed forces' militaria? The ability to divide the men and their equipment from their political masters? I had not considered this point until your post, hmmmm......

 

[aswatland]

I reckon the tanning and skinning process had something to do with it too. The skin backing fleeces of US shearling appears to be quite thin in comparison to earlier Irvins (however later Irvins tend to have the thinner crinkly leather as well and also tear easily). I've owned some shocker late models and it alsmost put me off them altogether.

Aside from the preparation techniques perhaps it was desirable to have thinner skinned jackets to aid in flexibility and movement in confined spaces whilst still providing as much warmth as possible. I find the shaggy late war irvins to be warmer but less bulky than the pre-War types.

Just like the aircraft they were used in they weren't expected to be used for a long time so longevity or absolute durability wouldn't have been high on the priority list compared to keeping the wearer warm.

Andrew, I am sure you are correct. The skinning and tanning processes would have made a difference to the durability of the fleece. It would be nice to be able to compare the British processes with those used in the US.

Perhaps the age of the sheep was a factor as well. An older sheep may have had a thicker, tougher skin and perhaps they were used in the early Irvins when the tanneries could be more fussy. When there was more demand later in the War any fleeces would have surficed including those from younger sheep. Just a thought! BTW I have owned late war Irvins with skins of varying thicknesses, although more have been thinner. Also I suspect the early Irvins were made from veg tanned fleeces whilst the later ones were chrome tanned and this may have made a difference to durability.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I don't imagine the skin of a young sheep is substantially different from that of an old sheep. Biology doesn't work like that.

If there are differences - disregarding apocryphal ones - between US and British shearling jackets, it'll all be down to the skinning/tanning/processing.

bk

 

[aswatland]

I don't imagine the skin of a young sheep is substantially different from that of an old sheep. Biology doesn't work like that.



bk

Thanks. My theory was pure speculation!

 

[ethanedwards]

Rogue Irvin

Anyone care to guess what this is all about? (The guy on the right has a very
rounded collar on his IJ!)

 

[Edward]

some say
the British are more prone to 'romanticising' WW2 because although the Luftwaffe and V weapons killed so many, they didn't have to live under such a long, dreadful and wicked occupation as did so many of our European friends.

Cetainly, that's bound to be a factor - and that could go even moreso for the US, given that aside from the horror of Pearl Harbour WW2 was quite far removed.

If it is given that the Irvin and A2 may be called symbols of a justified war, and we can hopefully wear and collect them without too much contention, what then is the appeal - to a great many collectors - of Wehrmacht and other German armed forces' militaria? The ability to divide the men and their equipment from their political masters? I had not considered this point until your post, hmmmm......

I guess that comes from a general interest in the period, and in the stylistics of uniform design, as well as the practicalities of the clothing. Purely speaking in stylistic terms, the Hitler era Wehrmacht, the SS, and so on had an incredibly stylish aesthtic - not so easy to do, I should imagine, with clothes that had to be so practicality focussed by design, bearing in mind they were to be worn in combat. It seems to me too that for many people who are interested in the reenactment / living history side of things, there is a clear distinction between the men of the Whermacht who were, much like the Allied troops, out there fighting for, they believed, their country, and the Nazis like the Allemagne SS who were committed to the Nazi ideology.

I certainly hope it's only an attaction to what Hitler stood for for a very, very few!

 

[aswatland]

Anyone care to guess what this is all about? (The guy on the right has a very
rounded collar on his IJ!)

I will take an educated guess. They are listening to a recording of a rousing speech by Churchill!

BTW the Irvin was most likely made by Links.

 

[PADDY]

The annual RAF/NAVY barbeque beach party.

Sitting sheepishly around the newly issued disposable barbie, the annual Bryl Cream Boy/Jack Tar Beach Party at Walmington-on-Sea fails to get off the ground as no-one has a clue as to how the blighter works!!

 

[Mike1973]

Anyone care to guess what this is all about? (The guy on the right has a very
rounded collar on his IJ!)

The Guard by the Hurrie looks very Russian, so do the sailors with their jackboots... And the shot looks near the coast... Something to do with the RAF protecting Russian convoys perhaps? And based in Russia? I'l love to know more!

 

[Smithy]

Mike is right.

That is 81 Sqn of 151 Wing in Russia in autumn 1941. This squadron had been deliberately reformed in July 1941 to be part of the RAF contingent protecting the Arctic convoy ports of Murmansk and Archangel.

 

[ethanedwards]

Mike is right.

That is 81 Sqn of 151 Wing in Russia in autumn 1941. This squadron had been deliberately reformed in July 1941 to be part of the RAF contingent protecting the Arctic convoy ports of Murmansk and Archangel.

So that's a confirmed kill for Smithy, a damaged probable for Mike, Andrew bounced over the channel, and Paddy grounded with an eye infection. Well done chaps!

Read all about it here - http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/hurricanes/index.htm

 

[Spitfire]

The WPG Irvin jacket

Hi all
I am thinking about getting myself a number two Irvin - the one form What Price Glory. I know the jacket has been discussed earlier on this forum - but could not find the thread (maybe due to the resent breakdown)

You guys who have bought one - how do you like it.
Is it as good as it looks?

What do the "Irvin afficionados" think about it?

As some of you might know I persuaded Aviation Leathercraft to make me a version in lighter fleece - closer to the original.
Is the WPG a better replica?

Cheers

 

[aswatland]

There's a review on the VLJ site.
http://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=76

 

[Spitfire]

Am trying to log on - but in the meantime: What do you think about the WPG Irvin ?
Your words count a lot in my book