IRVIN NUTS?...the ULTIMATE thread for those who love 'em!

[MDFrench]

Really? I was under the impression that RAF pilots kind of had a personal preference choice between the flight suit or the Irvin no matter what they were flying, be it Spitfire, Hurricane or Bomber...

Mike

 

[Baggers]

Is it made from the "mid weight" shearling offered on their sale pages? I got mine about three or four months ago and love it.

Cheers!

 

[Flitcraft]

Absolutely awesome jacket!
If you scored that under 5 bills, you got a deal.
Good job!
Be sure to post the complete kit whn you get it!:cool2:

 

[Billingsgate]

Really? I was under the impression that RAF pilots kind of had a personal preference choice between the flight suit or the Irvin no matter what they were flying, be it Spitfire, Hurricane or Bomber...

It's not a matter of preference or allocation, it's a matter of timing.

As the war progressed, shortages in sheepskin caused Irvins to have more and more panels - in order to conserve material. The sort of jacket you have ceased being made sometime in 1940. It was followed, sometime that year, by a split panel Irvin.

Meanwhile, the Hurricane was developed and deployed earlier than the Spitfire, which also was being deployed in early 1940.

Therefore, if you were a Spitfire pilot, your Irvin probably would not have been the early, no-panel Irvin. In contrast, Hurricanes, which were deployed in the 1930's, were piloted by men who had those early Irvins.

 

[BellyTank]

Not a wholly reliable argument... there would have been 'one-piece' Irvins around for the duration of the whole War- fear not French- you done good!:cheers1:

B
T

 

[Billingsgate]

Not a wholly reliable argument... there would have been 'one-piece' Irvins around for the duration of the whole War- fear not French- you done good!

There's no shame in being a Hurricane pilot - far from it. Actually, Hurricanes bore the brunt of the Battle of Britain.

 

[nightandthecity]

As far as I know all RAF aircrew were issued with Irvins up to about 1943, but whether they wore them or not was a matter of choice - and in the early war era it seems few fighter pilots actually wore them while flying - they were too bulky, and cold wasn't such a problem in a Spitfire or Hurricane as in a bomber. This I have on the authority of several former Battle of Britain pilots. They often wore them on the ground however and were often photographed in them - on the ground! In combat Irvins were mostly worn by bomber crews.

 

[PADDY]

Photo comparison between my new ELC Irvin and an original.

Just received my new (well, new to me, but second-hand) Eastman Leather Clo. Irvin styled RAF 1942 model flying jacket and my original from that era (41-42).

I'm going to let the photos tell most of the story, but the Eastman if very well made. The shade of shearling/wool is almost identical, taking into account that the original is more golden due to aging probably. Also, the original is darker in hide, but bear in mind this is a 60+ old jacket, so it will darken with usage and any oils or dirt that has got onto it. I have seen a NOS Irvin, and the colour of hide would match that of the Eastman (and also Aero repros I've seen and handled).
Belt buckle on the Eastman looks cast off an original. Zip tapes on the Eastman are identical to my original Dots, but the pullers on the Eastman cuff zips are modelled on Lightnings, while the main front zip is a semi copy of a Dot with the box stop, familiar with Dots (although the front puller is modelled on a lightning! all very confusing). But it works.

A nice touch from Eastman is for the elastic behind the collar which originals have to close the collar up when wearing high altitude mits. Just a nice little touch of authenticity that puts it a tad ahead of some other repro makers (but it is a white elephant, in that who would use it. But nice all the same!).

Most of the seams and stitching count are identical to my orginal.

The collar on the Eastman looks abit bigger/broader when laid flat when you are wearing it (ie: you don't have the collar pulled up), but maybe that will settle with age.

The original has more weight and solidness to it in both the main leather panels and the panel behind the collar. Not sure if this is what 60 years does to the leather and what treatments/oils have been put into the hide by its owners, but definitely more solid and heavier than the Eastman.

I like Eastman's touch with the leather pulls on all the zip pullers. Some originals had these, some did not. My original has them on the cuff pulls, but the main Dot zip has a spare piece of leather that has been tied through to allow aircrew with mitts to pull it up/down easily.

When I saw a batch of the ELC Irvins at Duxford last year (2005), I did feel that for all the obvious hard work that had been put into them, the little plastic bits at the bottom of the main zip tape let them down. And I felt disappointed for the Eastman team, because it's little naffy things like that, that the punters often pick up on regarding period accuracies. But with the one I have, it doesn't have the platic pieces, so maybe that has been corrected (?), hope so.

Sizing, mmmm, always a difficult issue from maker to maker. Eastman have their Irvin marked as a 44". But it feels like a 40-42 on me and wears very like my original which is a 40-42 wartime sizing.

Am I pleased with it. Generally, yes. As a repro, it's a good one, I actually think that Gary and boys down in Devon (UK) have done themselves proud with this number and should give themselves a deserved pat on the back for all the hardwork and detail and construction in these pretty faithful copies.

Worth a retail value brand new of £400 (UK)..? Really 'you' have got to answer that, but I know that for that amount you can get a damned good original in excellent condition.

Advice, if you want to go repro, keep an eye out for a decent second hand one, but never rule out going for the real deal!

 

[scotrace]

Thanks!

You've every right to be chuffed about those jackets, Paddy. Super nice.
I'm still waffling on an A2 like a sailor who can't choose between Betty and Sally. This coming Sunday will find me surrounded by original jackets of all kinds so I hope that gets me off the fence.
Now, the real test of that new Irvin is to wear it down to the government offices and see it you get a nice petting! :cheers1:

 

[PADDY]

Just need the RAF accessories now!

Just need a few accessories to compliment this jacket!

 

[Alan Eardley]

Irvin zips

Don't worry Paddy, I won't go on too long...

First, don't be confused. Originals have Lightning sliders with Dot stopper boxes.

I agree with everything you say about the zips being the 'weak point' (if I can use that term) of ELC's otherwise well-researched reproduction. Personally I was surprised at this, as I suspect that the custom RiRi zips must be very expensive. The repro Lightning pullers are OK, but the sliders are lightweight and are the wrong shape.

Here's a tip - Harlan Glenn (King and Country) in Canada makes much better repro Lightnings. They are sold through SoF for (last time I looked) ?Ǭ£15 each.
Voila! Two Lightning sleeve zips, indistinguishable from the originals. I don't pay this, however, as I pick up womens' sheepskin bootees (usually made in Glastonbury in the 1960s and 70s) for next to nothing in charity shops and rob them of their original zips which are the same as wartime originals.

Now, the main zip. A bit more difficult, but it can be done. Some 1960 Pattern Smock Combat (the old firm's last olive green jacket) have zips with Dot stopper boxes. You can redye the tape brown and fit a Lightning puller if you wish. Many 1958 pattern sleeping bags had brown Dot zippers and they still turn up. They can be shortened and have the right puller, but they are steel rather than brass and have a /l\ rather than an AM marking. An engraver can fix that in short order.

Hope this helps. Was I boring?

 

[Zemke Fan]

You boys...

have WAY too much time on your hands! Great jacket Paddy, and an illuminating discussion. It's nice to see a couple of proper gents who don't mind getting down into the dandelions as we say on this side of the pond.

Was I boring?

Hmmmm... What's the song lyric that comes to mind? Wake me up before I go go?

ZF!

 

[EdinLA44]

In the side by side photos, which jacket is the real one and which is the Eastman?

 

[shamus]

Nice job Paddy,

Although they look similar, they are slightly different in the pictures. As you mentioned the zippers. The hides look totally different. The original looks much heavier. Also the sleeve construction is different, one using a whole panel and other pieced.

And do you know why the stitching is different on the collar?

I'd love to see them close up and really get a feel for new vs. repro.

I'd be happy to have either in my collection!

 

[PADDY]

Which is original, which is repro? (Irvin)

In the side by side photos, which jacket is the real one and which is the Eastman?

The darker one is the original. It is a heavier shearling/sheepskin, but then the wool is longer on the inside too. Having said that, the leather hide seems tougher on the original. But the Eastman is a good copy and very warm (just had it on the beach and it was bracing, but the ELC Irvin stood up nicely!).

 

[Zemke Fan]

Got the glasses, Paddy...

Just need a few accessories to compliment this jacket!

Anyone who wants an original pair of RAF sunglasses as in this photo, send me a PM. I'll let them go for what I paid for them ($75 I think). They come with original Air Ministry case and are dated affirmatively to the period. I love them, but they're too small for my face.

ZF

 

[Baggers]

Here's a tip - Harlan Glenn (King and Country) in Canada makes much better repro Lightnings. They are sold through SoF for (last time I looked) ?Ǭ£15 each.

Just a minor correction, but Harlan is out of California in the U.S.A. He's been long out of the British repro market, K&C being defunct, and moved on to WW2 USMC. His current web site is Tarawa to Okinawa (I think). And he's pulled back even further since his film consulting business took off when he started working for Digital Ranch, one of the production houses that make programs for the U.S. version of the History Channel. I think he now only produces Marine gear between movie and TV gigs. Soldier of Fortune carried his version of the 1st model of the para smock, but I think a company in Canada took that over. I have no idea if he still has any connection to it.

Cheers!

 

[Larry5337]

Pockets on Irvins

I'm thinking of buying an Irvin repro, but since I want to wear it as an everyday jacket, would like to add pockets.

My thought is to have B-3 style pocket(s) added.

Anyone know if this was or would have been done?

Larry
larry5337@aol.com

 

[Baggers]

I'm thinking of buying an Irvin repro, but since I want to wear it as an everyday jacket, would like to add pockets.

My thought is to have B-3 style pocket(s) added.

Anyone know if this was or would have been done?

Larry
larry5337@aol.com

By "B-3 style" pockets, are you referring to the single glove pocket on original B-3s and better repros, or the inset pockets seen on "mall jacket" type B-3s?

As for pockets on an Irvin, sure it's done, but it isn't authentic to the originals. But it's your jacket, you can do whatever suits your fancy. After all, you're the one who'll be wearing it (although not until next winter if you're north of the equator!).

Cheers!

 

[PADDY]

Go for a B3 then Larry...

I really think that pockets on an Irvin styled jacket just don't look right. If you really want that, then don't go spending big bucks on the likes of Aero or Eastmans, as there are cheaper lookalikes with the added pockets out there. As you are paying the big money for a lookalike repro and quality of leather.

Personally, if I really wanted pockets then go with the B3, or a M445a or ANJ-4 (Something in that vain) shearling. So it keeps the style authentic as it should have been, rather than customising an original style with 'add ons.' But, each to their own good hunting.