In which WWII army should you have fought?

[Spitfire]

Twitch, there is - unfortunately - evidence enough, that the two or three danish SS regiments fought on the eastern front.
There is - however - no evidence in participating in holocaust or killing of civil population in Russia/Poland. But that's about the only nice thing one can say about them.

What is even worse, some of them came back from the front and formed local terrorgroups who - in co-ordination with GESTAPO - killed danish citizens, terrorbombed places of public interest (like Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen) and joined in the torture captured resistancemembers.

 

[reetpleat]

I can only give you some - not very flattering - figures from Denmark 1944.
There were more young danish men fighting with the SS on the eastern front than there were people in the resistance.
And they all volunteered! Nobody or nothing forced them to go.

Of couse some came from the winterwar in Finland, where it was a noble cause to help Finland fight the mighty agressor, The Soviet Union.
And - when Finland backed out - it was very easy to continue that fight in the german army.

Many of the young men also came from ultra conservative homes, and they were brought up to be against socialisme and everything beyond that.

A certain percentage of them came for fun, because of the adventure and because they had nothing more important to do with themselves - such as a job, family etc.

And - yes - some came bacause they turned nazis. Simple as that.

Of course in may 1945 there were many more people in the resistance (many joined up in those days!!! ) than there were danish SS soldiers. They suddenly dissapeared.

I think you' ll see the same picture in many occupied countries in western Europe. Norway, Belgium, Holland France, etc...

I don't know much about it, but isn't it also posible that many younge men bought into the heavy, carefully crated propeganda same as Germans did? I mean, take a young man and tell him he can join a new vision of the future of law and order and prosperity, especialy those of german descent, german greatness and all) throw in anti comunism and anti russian, anti britan and france, who wee not considered any more good or special than germans. And yes, even if you were portraying jews as a bad element that is hurting your country We did it to jews, blacks, japanese, germans etc. It is done by every country) back then people often did not think as loftily about as us about tolerance. It isn't like you had to align yourself with pure evil to join the germans. It may well have seemed like a reasonable idea to some average farmer who did not know much about the bigger picture.

 

[reetpleat]

True the French tend to be secretive. But they are also self-centered and arrogant. De Gaulle was convinced that no one else should order, or make any statement, to the people of France other than him. Regardless of the fact that France would be speaking German if it wasn't for the U.S.A. and the U.K. I have the blessing, or curse depending on who you ask, of being half French. I say that only to qualify my statement that the French tend to be arrogant. All of the French I've met have been.

Oh please. Spare me the generalities. People are people anywhere you go. I think any country that thinks it has the right to spread its own ideas and control over other countries is pretty arrogant, and that includes France, Britain, and the US, not to mention Spain etc. I guess. Of course, many other countries would if they could.

But I just don't buy that any one group of people is more arrogant than another.

And don't forget that the US would still be speaking english is it were not for the French.

 

[Mike K.]

It was U.S. or Britain for me.

 

[Smithy]

The members of the Waffen SS from Western Europe (and those who were captured allied troops) as Spitfire points out were volunteers. When Himmler introduced conscription for the Waffen SS this was in the occupied Eastern European states (Estonia, Latvia, etc).

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I think, at the time, in the countries other than Germany it really wasn't understood how many of the same xenophobic, anti-Semitic, (all-the-other-phobias peculiar to people who hate 'otherness') were present in the under- and not so under-belly of those countries.

WWII can be seen as a sort of inevitable bloodletting. Something that, unfortunately, had to happen to sort out the mess of phobias Europe had become. I don't think anyone would argue against one who subscribes to the notion that things have gotten better. Would they have got better had WWII not happened? Methinks not. And certainly not if the Naze-eyes had been dominant afterwards. WWII allowed all the sane, rational people to see how absurd are the notions of racial inferiority etc put forth by the more insular segments of those societies.

Nay, it showed Europeans the absurdness of Nations themselves. Long live the Single State idea!

bk

 

[griffer]

Long live the Single State idea!

Pinko commie!

 

[Twitch]

Part of Hitler's allure was the fact that the Allies sought to punish Germany at the end of WW I. The conditions that festered were stimulated by the Allied want to get monetary retribution and keep Germany down. Rampant inflation and poverty swept Germany well into the 1920s. The very conditions the Allies created and fostered allowed Hitlerean ideas to propagate. It made logical sense to many that Hitler's way offered a way up and out of the misery.

The Weimar Republic was showing its age and had just about been played out as a viable governing system for the modern era. In the respect that Hitler's NDASP national socialist workers party actually assisted in economic revival is a two-edged sword. Great for national economics in the short run but bad for future international relationships.

The SS sought Germanics from EVERY country in Europe to staff the organization. By the end of the war non-German SS members outnumbers German ones! The Nazi theory was that it didn't matter if in previous times Germans had migrated to Denmark or Russia. Their descendants were German in race and culture!

Children taken from other countries of Germanic descent were returned to Germany and raised as Germans. Generally hundreds of thousands of true Germans each had immigrated and lived in Czecho Slovakia, Albania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Rumania, Yugoslavia and Russia. Europe already was one state- German!

Apart from disucssion of atrocities, the SS that were met in normal combat were superior to the average Whermacht grunt. Their additional physical conditioning and specialized training made a difference.

At the end of hostilities The whole idea of the Marshall Plan was to avoid to costly mistakes of WW I and the punishment of surrendered enemies for an unknown time. Japan and Germany ultimately rose to significant economic players in the world market. This was a far better fate than exploitation of their miniscule financial resources and taking anything of value by the victors while hold them down.

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

In the respect that Hitler's NDASP national socialist workers party actually assisted in economic revival is a two-edged sword. Great for national economics in the short run

Misconception - the Nazis weren't even good in short-time economics, just in propaganda.

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

Nay, it showed Europeans the absurdness of Nations themselves.

Even if you were right, it didn't keep for long, and the idea of ethnic monoculture is alive and kicking. Former Yugoslavia, former Soviet Union, Bask region, Flanders, Corsica, even Scotland. And the concept that Turks in Bulgaria aren't actual Bulgarians etc.

The f?ºhrer idea has come out of fashion, but that one reich should match one volk each?

 

[Twitch]

Hmm? Seems to me the Nazis put lots of people to work in Germany albeit in the armament industry but the economy was definitely improved for a while. It wasn't till 1944 that the economy turned down.

Here's a little timeline.

Overview-
1919-1932: The Weimar Republic embraces democratic principles, but successive governments must deal with an economy crippled by war debt, the exacting demands of the Treaty of Versailles, and the decision to print money recklessly to meet these obligations- problems compounded by the global depression and opponents' efforts to undermine the treaty. Adolf Hitler's National Socialist Party slowly gains popularity.

1933-1938: The Nazis assume power in 1933 and quickly install a fascist one-party state. Government spending on military rearmament and economic self-reliance also brings down unemployment. Nazi courts and internal security bodies act with increasingly arbitrary power, targeting minorities and dissidents. German territorial designs complicate European politics and will trigger World War II.

1939-1944: To sustain the war, the Nazi government further mobilizes the "warfare state." Forced labor and raw materials from captured territories help make up for a shrinking and increasingly unskilled workforce, but the economy can't keep up with the demands of the war by 1944.

Economics-
1919-1928: Under the Treaty of Versailles, Germany must give up territory and population plus pay reparations. War debt, reparations, and reckless printing of money cause crippling hyperinflation in the postwar years, while unemployment remains high through the '20s. The onset of the Depression ends a slight recovery. Government spending increases to 25 percent of GDP between the wars, up from 15 percent.

1929-1932: Depression in the United States prompts creditors to call in their loans to Germany. Unemployment rises to nearly 30 percent in 1932. Budget cuts designed to convince the Allies Germany was suffering too much to pay reparations do lead to a moratorium, but also cause misery and discontent, which in turn fuels the Nazi rise to power.

1933-1938: With the Nazis in power, subsidies boost industries tied to arms and self-reliance. Unemployment is almost zero, but wages are low, and foreign reserves shrink to fund expansion. Unlike Japan, Germany does not limit consumer goods, and rearmament is not yet fully planned. In 1936 Hitler urges Germany to be ready for war by 1940 through a Four-Year Plan that sets production quotas.

1939-1944: The war's opening blitzkrieg does not disrupt the civilian economy significantly. But by 1942, the war effort includes ever more centralized planning and control, and a warfare state that subordinates private property to Nazi purposes evolves. After 1944, faced with fewer workers, Allied bombing, and lost territory, planners struggle to maintain production, often relying on foreign and slave labor. Vast funds come into the economy from expropriations from occupied territories.

Social-
1919-1932: Unemployed veterans are a major problem, and Weimar governments modernize and expand programs such as unemployment insurance and public assistance. The Depression undermines many of these programs, which depend on worker contributions. Hitler's National Socialist Party exploits this lack of an effective safety net in recruiting followers. Ambitious plans for universal education are not realized.

1933-1945: In 1933 the Reich centralizes social programs and education as a means of control. The regime extends health insurance to retirees in 1941, and expands health care and maternity leave the following year.


Trade-
1933-1944: The Nazi regime aims for economic self-sufficiency, autarchy, through industrial policy and bartering for raw materials with nearby states. The shift away from trade-oriented growth, together with the global depression, contributes to a fall in trade to only 6 percent of GDP in the late '30s. Once war begins, occupied territories are exploited for raw materials and labor.

 

[reetpleat]

I think, at the time, in the countries other than Germany it really wasn't understood how many of the same xenophobic, anti-Semitic, (all-the-other-phobias peculiar to people who hate 'otherness') were present in the under- and not so under-belly of those countries.

WWII can be seen as a sort of inevitable bloodletting. Something that, unfortunately, had to happen to sort out the mess of phobias Europe had become. I don't think anyone would argue against one who subscribes to the notion that things have gotten better. Would they have got better had WWII not happened? Methinks not. And certainly not if the Naze-eyes had been dominant afterwards. WWII allowed all the sane, rational people to see how absurd are the notions of racial inferiority etc put forth by the more insular segments of those societies.

Nay, it showed Europeans the absurdness of Nations themselves. Long live the Single State idea!

bk

I wish I could agree. Buyt just ask a bosnian, a serb, or a gypsy how well they have gotten rid of those old ideas.

 

[reetpleat]

Part of Hitler's allure was the fact that the Allies sought to punish Germany at the end of WW I. The conditions that festered were stimulated by the Allied want to get monetary retribution and keep Germany down. Rampant inflation and poverty swept Germany well into the 1920s. The very conditions the Allies created and fostered allowed Hitlerean ideas to propagate. It made logical sense to many that Hitler's way offered a way up and out of the misery.

The Weimar Republic was showing its age and had just about been played out as a viable governing system for the modern era. In the respect that Hitler's NDASP national socialist workers party actually assisted in economic revival is a two-edged sword. Great for national economics in the short run but bad for future international relationships.

The SS sought Germanics from EVERY country in Europe to staff the organization. By the end of the war non-German SS members outnumbers German ones! The Nazi theory was that it didn't matter if in previous times Germans had migrated to Denmark or Russia. Their descendants were German in race and culture!

Children taken from other countries of Germanic descent were returned to Germany and raised as Germans. Generally hundreds of thousands of true Germans each had immigrated and lived in Czecho Slovakia, Albania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Rumania, Yugoslavia and Russia. Europe already was one state- German!

Apart from disucssion of atrocities, the SS that were met in normal combat were superior to the average Whermacht grunt. Their additional physical conditioning and specialized training made a difference.

At the end of hostilities The whole idea of the Marshall Plan was to avoid to costly mistakes of WW I and the punishment of surrendered enemies for an unknown time. Japan and Germany ultimately rose to significant economic players in the world market. This was a far better fate than exploitation of their miniscule financial resources and taking anything of value by the victors while hold them down.

I agree completely. Most of the history of europe was fight for a while, then be friends for a while, trade, make money etc, then fight some more. It was not common for many centuries for one side to so completely seek unconditional surrender (which we still did in ww2 possibly prolonging the war) and then demanding such retribution, especially with a people who were very proud and had a history of empire. to expect a German to accept such conditions was absurd.

And right, Hitler came along at a time when people had been put in a place of wanting to hear what he had to say.

I fear that we have crteated the conditions in which the bin ladens and other radicals were able to flourish.

 

[Diamondback]

And right, Hitler came along at a time when people had been put in a place of wanting to hear what he had to say.

Or crafted his message around what they wanted to hear, as a tool to steer them down his path of destruction.

 

[MrNewportCustom]

Crumpets and tea, anyone?

Well Chuck, it looks like I'm off to Merry Old England for some hot cross buns and tea in between bombing runs. Maybe I'll pick up a Slough Citroen SM while I'm there. lol


Lee
___________________________

"Lock him in the tower. Make him part of the tour!" - King Richard

 

[Rooster]

Poland......

 

[reetpleat]

Or crafted his message around what they wanted to hear, as a tool to steer them down his path of destruction.

Well, both are true, and both parties are equally guilty. One for givingthe people what they wnated to ehar, and the other, for going along with it for hearing what they wanted to hear. And then the third party for putting the people in a position where they were.

There is no question hitler was an evil madman, but why was he able to do what he did? Because he had the right environment.

 

[twobarbreak]

Twitch, there is - unfortunately - evidence enough, that the two or three danish SS regiments fought on the eastern front.
There is - however - no evidence in participating in holocaust or killing of civil population in Russia/Poland. But that's about the only nice thing one can say about them.

What is even worse, some of them came back from the front and formed local terrorgroups who - in co-ordination with GESTAPO - killed danish citizens, terrorbombed places of public interest (like Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen) and joined in the torture captured resistancemembers.

You speak the truth. My Morfar was in the Military Police in Copenhagen before,during and after the war.He was part of the resistance, and was Credited with Arresting and Guarding Werner Best until his court appearance.

another thing to add is that the Nazi Recruits into the Danish Frikorps which started in 1941 was in fact frowned upon.

Although fighting in other Military groups was not illegal by Danish law, the recruiting process on Danish soil was illegal which of course The Nazi's ignored.

The Danish Government at first tried to stop this recruitment process
and considered it Treason until Pressure from the Nazi's (Heinrich Himmler brought the complaint) the Danish government not to obstruct in the recruitment process.

here are some pictures of my Morfar:
http://www.looseankles.com/morfar.html

thanks, peter

 

[twobarbreak]

Good luck with that, granted his last one was the sniper that was sent out to stop him, and he almost did it, the exploding bullet only hit him in the jaw. Simo Hayha racked up that list with iron sites, he did not like the scopes he said that he had to rise up too much to use the scope propperly.

O yes, I'm quite aware! I just set my sights High... No pun intended! hehehe

 

[Rooster]

O yes, I'm quite aware! I just set my sights High... No pun intended! hehehe

He actually used a sub machine gun to make many of his 500+ kills. The rifle he used most often was a M28 with open iron sights.