In Support of Brick and Mortar Hat Shops

[John in Covina]

The bottom line is that although some may bemoan the practice, it is still the time-honored practice of "shopping around." Sure, I could do all of my shopping online, but all the online guys have to work with is how well their websites allow you to interact with them and price.

When I walk into a brick and mortar store it gives the sales staff an interactive opportunity to win me over. It doesn't have to be just on price. If we all said OK, we won't walk into a local shop because to do so without buying anything is stealing the local shops lose the opportunity they might have had to sell us something.

And I would point out that even if I go in and look, and ask questions, they are getting my time and attention and opportunity to sell to me in return. That is worth something! My time and attention is worth something! Now that you've pushed the issue, I'd say that's a fair trade. Ask any sales person whether or not they'd rather have a warm body walk in the door and give them that chance, or have that same person stay home and click a mouse.

I think they'd go for the chance.

Regards,
Tom

**********
In a sense I agree with you, I did take the time to see what the B&M store had for pricing. But I was relying on the reviews, my mind was made up already as to what I wanted, I did not need to rely on their displays or pick their brains. I was hoping that if they had a sale it would be within a reasonable spread. Like someone said above if it's a percentage that is acceptable to me I'd pay more. The thing is it's a year later and the stores have my model for less than the great on-line price I got.

 

[Woodfluter]

Whoaa!

I'd never argue with a bartender, and I wouldn't want to irritate John - he's probably bigger than I am! Plus he comes from the town where I was born.

Really guys, I think everyone here is too ethical to knowingly lie, cheat or steal. Seems like maybe the topic of keeping stores in business is relevant.

I don't agree with John's conclusion about this (as noted), but do think he wasn't suggesting anyone was knowingly engaging in unethical behavior. He was raising a fair question - do we unwittingly do harm while we think are being reasonable and fair? Yes, the language was provoking, but if we were face to face would we take offense or understand the intent?

This is a nice lounge, and I've generally found more substantive discussion than bickering. I like a good friendly argument where folks learn something.

- Bill

 

[John in Covina]

You are right, there is a difference in perceptions.
We (and this includes you) need to respect the different member perceptions.
You need not compare something you disagree with to actions like cheating, stealing, and justifying murder. They are not the same. That is creating a mountain of discussion from a molehill of a comment.

If Skyvue says his questions to a saleperson are innocent then they are. You cannot call him to task on it.

We should be able to agree to disagree.

**************

I asked for clartification that's all. What makes those questions innocent versus not innocent. Let's say you're new to hats then you could ask questions to get ideas without being obligated.

You can pronounce me as wrong then that's fine.

I came in to this with a concept of a set of ethics when it come to buying stuff and said here's why.

If you don't believe in the ethics I have put forth but have another set that's fine too.

The basis of what I have put forth has been seen as an attack, if they aren't you values you are free to say so. I'd like to hear what the values are based on.

There is competition in this world for making money and selling stuff or doing the best we can. There are concepts of fairness and unfairness of right and wrong and even things we do and things we don't do., we just don't all share the same values.

If you feel I have attacked you then I'll say Sorry.

 

[Feraud]

- do we unwittingly do harm while we think are being reasonable and fair?

Very good question. If you are not distracting a salesperson from working I see nothing wrong with asking a few questions. We all window shop and this isn't much different.
Most of the time it is the salesperson who will approach you and start a conversation. We cannot be faulted for a lack of ethics for asking a question. Retail sales is all about making a buck and part of being a smart consumer is getting the most out of your dollar.

 

[John in Covina]

In regards to this then may I ask this question?

Trying to take the innocent incertainty out.

Is it okay to go in and ask all sorts of questions, take a test drive as it were and put the salesperson through all of the routine KNOWING you're going to buy elsewhere from an online place?

 

[John in Covina]

Let me add this then, while you are considering it.

Is there a matter of degree involved too?
Sales person is non-commision drone of giant chain conglomerate.
Sales person is commission type.
Sales person is owner of small brick & motar store.

 

[Colby Jack]

There are 2 brick and mortar stores that I can get hats at...both are western wear places, where I have purchased 2 cowboy hats and my first Akubra, a Snowy River. However....I usually was just browsing and trying on various hats to check for fit. Very little interaction with sales people...but when I did ask questions....it was whether or not they had my size or not. Also...I would tell them straight up that if they had such and such a hat in stock in my size, I would have bought it. For some reason...They carry hats to 7 3/8 and anything bigger is rare. My 7 5/8 is usually a special order...(though now I'm wearing a 7 1/2 till the hair grows back)...If I have to wait and pay for a special order, and then find that it doesn't fit right, there is animosity between the store and myself. They already act like they go out of their way for simple things...but that's the problem with brick and mortar stores lately...at least to me...[huh]

 

[Tango Yankee]

John,

I'll refer you back to my previous post. Any time I am in a store interested in something, no matter what my intentions when I walked in, is a sales opportunity for the sales staff. It doesn't matter what type of store, what level the sales person sits at (drone or owner or somewhere in-between.)

My time is as valuable as theirs. If I am offering up my time to listen to them, they have an opportunity to present a case as to why I should buy from them. The mere fact that I walked into their store and perhaps asked questions is not enough--I paid for their time by giving them mine and my attention and the opportunity to sell to me in return. If their price is higher, then they need to provide a good reason for me to pay the premium. That reason may be service, convenience, or maybe I just like the guy and his attitude, but there has to be some value added. If their attitude follows your reasoning, i.e., if I'm going to darken their doors and take up some of their valuable time I damn well better buy something, then I'll take my business elsewhere.

As I said earlier: I'm sure that a good salesperson would rather have the opportunity to change my mind and sell me something then to have me never cross his/her door in the first place, which is what you are advocating. And even if I don't make my purchase there, who's to say that having a good experience then wouldn't bring me back again later?

Regards,
Tom

 

[duggap]

I took the question to be stores that I could physically go in. There are none within reasonable driving distance. So I have ordered several hats from Bencraft in NYC as well as several from Art Fawcett. I would really enjoy going into a store to look and try on some of the hats. I can promise though, if they have my size, my addiction will take over and I will buy.

 

[Paul-ette]

Our way at Paul's Hat Works...

In regards to this discussion and to bring it back to relevancy as I am now a hat shop owner/salesperson let me say a few things:

1. I am happy to chat with anyone whether or no they want to buy a hat, in fact I invited a man to our opening who has no intention of ever purchasing a hat from us (only buys cheap vintage). (Maybe we can change his mind )

2. We understand that though our price point may be high, we want to give our customers a lovely experience by:
a. Providing a comfortable and beautiful shop, with many lovely antique items on display, current issues of hat and cigar magazines, & hat books we are collecting, on a table.
b. We will be offering those that stop by coffee, tea, or cucumber ice water.
c. We have a great selection of quality records we will be playing, etc

3. We are confidant in the quality of our product and the like of it not being seen very often, so we will let the customer decide.

~ Paulette

 

[handlebar bart]

So much to ignore in this thread:eusa_doh: But on topic I have bought two hats at Bernie Utz in Seattle and though I love the shop they just don't carry hats I'm interested in. And I don't wear either hat anymore. I do love to go there to look around, and maybe one day they will be fortunate that my addiction wins out.

 

[Woodfluter]

Paulette, that's a great example of adding value that you can't get by purchasing online! That's the way to do it. Add in pleasant and helpful interactions, which I'm sure you do, and this is the best way for a real store to compete.

Best of luck and hope to see you sometime!

- Bill

 

[munchausen]

In regards to this discussion and to bring it back to relevancy as I am now a hat shop owner/salesperson let me say a few things:

1. I am happy to chat with anyone whether or no they want to buy a hat, in fact I invited a man to our opening who has no intention of ever purchasing a hat from us (only buys cheap vintage). (Maybe we can change his mind )

2. We understand that though our price point may be high, we want to give our customers a lovely experience by:
a. Providing a comfortable and beautiful shop, with many lovely antique items on display, current issues of hat and cigar magazines, & hat books we are collecting, on a table.
b. We will be offering those that stop by coffee, tea, or cucumber ice water.
c. We have a great selection of quality records we will be playing, etc

3. We are confidant in the quality of our product and the like of it not being seen very often, so we will let the customer decide.

~ Paulette

Sounds a lovely experience, Paulette. Wish I were nearby to partake and learn. All the best for the grand re-opening.

On a side note, as the owner of the business they have a vested interest in making the business a success and so should be going that extra mile to please; considering the relative costs of opening a store compared to online selling.

Unfortunately for local stores, we live in a time where the market place extends to the globe which can ultimately kill smaller enterpries. But it's also important to remember that people buy for different reasons, price not being the only motivation. Service experience (as Paulette has shown above) and the ability to interact with the product and people are as enticing as saving ten bucks on the same hat via online stores.

Capitalism tends to weed out the sustainable from the non-sustainable. Until people can fully appreciate the consequences of their purchasing habits, it will remain that way. Money talks.

Cheers

 

[Goose.]

Paulette, that's a great example of adding value that you can't get by purchasing online! That's the way to do it. Add in pleasant and helpful interactions, which I'm sure you do, and this is the best way for a real store to compete.

Best of luck and hope to see you sometime!

- Bill

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :arated:
It is, indeed, the little things that make a big difference.

 

[jazzncocktails]

Is it okay to go in and ask all sorts of questions, take a test drive as it were and put the salesperson through all of the routine KNOWING you're going to buy elsewhere from an online place?

I'll add my 2 cents here:

Answer, IMHO: YES.

If I go to a car dealership to test drive a car, it's the salesman's job to sell me the car. That doesn't mean I have to buy it from him. If I'm smart, I'll consider his offer and then do some research. Rather than buy on the spot, I'll check out the prices and packages other dealerships offer, and I'll also go to my Credit Union and see what kind of loan and e-quote they can give me. In fact, I've often done that kind of research in advance, hoping the salesman at the dealership will be willing to beat the deal.

If the salesman who allowed me to test drive the car made a good impression on me, then I may see if he can meet others' deals...if he can't (or if I didn't like working with him), then I'll buy elsewhere.

That's not unethical. That's the free market.

On the subject of hats:

I called Hats-Plus.com and spent a good deal of time talking with a customer service rep about telescope/pork pie milan straws. After his very helpful service, I ordered a Biltmore milan telescope. It arrived, but I didn't much like the look of it on my noggin', so I sent it back. Hats-Plus gave me a full refund, minus the shipping costs. Would I order from them again in the future? Yes, but only if I was sure about the hat, because that experience cost me about $40 in shipping.

Now, recently visiting Santa Barbara, I stopped in to a mom and pop store on State Street, The Green & Yellow Basket (911 State). The owners were fantastic, and they had a Dobbs telescope milan in stock for me to try out. I enjoyed talking with them about hats, and I bought the Dobbs because I knew that it looked good on me, and I knew it was in the right price range from my earlier research.

In this case, the brick and mortar hat shop wins, as it always will over online retailers if they carry what consumers are looking for at the right price and with good service.

But I've gone into the Village Hat Shop in Long Beach on several occasions just to try things on, because as a newbie I bought two Stetsons for $150 each...and later found out I could have purchased them for a LOT less (not to mention the fact that a little company named Akubra makes great hats...). If VHS wants my business, they'll adjust prices and vary their selection. But that doesn't mean I can't go in, try hats on, and see what they can do for me regarding price and stock.

Like I said, just my 2 cents.

Ultimately, I agree: Support your brick and mortar hat shops!!!

 

[John in Covina]

I can say that my best Hat store experience was at the World Hats Mart. The owner was as helpful inspite of limited English abilities. I was able to look at a bunch of hats select what I wanted in a fedora again with a newsboy and later where I exchanged a gift for something I prefered.

Personally, I was not impressed by the sales guy we met at the VHS in Long Beach just don't think I'll be back right away. Hollywood Hatters kind of put me off, bad vibes when I was there. I visited both places with Matt in the Spring time.

Baron Hats in Glendale, I have only used for repairs and alterations. While the end result was good to very good, the extra trips to get them to get it right was not a good trade off.

I will add though that the best value of a new hat purchase at any store was a brown furfelt Hueckle I bought at one of the Burlington Coat Factories for about $25 and a fine hat worth several times that in comparison, but BCF is like buying from Trader Joes, it's not always the first tier vendor for these items, so you'll never know what you'll see in stock there.

 

[Al Niente]

Sales

Although I spent the better part of my career conducting symphony orchestras, there was a time between gigs when I was the manager of a piano store. Now, mind you, I knew nothing about sales when I started. I was used to being treated like a king and suddenly I found myself being treated as the scum of the earth. This because I was a "SALESMAN." People feared my "powers of persuasion" and thought I would use the Force on them and make them buy a 40K piano. I learned a lot during that period.

People lie. People are crazy. People will waste your time.

I also learned that there are far more great people out there than not. So far, this has been OT. fftopic:

With regard to a brick-and-mortar store vs their competition or internet, a good sales person knows that his buyers come into the store at various levels of readiness to purchase. Some are totally in the dark, some want it now as they have done their research (even at another store!) and some are in the middle, having some knowledge and seeking more. A good sales person can recognize this and deal with what the customer needs.

It is never in the salesperson's interest to let the customer leave without a purchase. After all, the customer may not come back or buy somewhere else after being educated by you. Hence, some sales persons are quite aggressive for you to buy now. But, the best salespersons know how to build value into their product and services. A customer does not buy because they do not as of yet see the value relative to dollars. That being said, sometimes a salesperson just needs to educate the customer and let them go and think about it. If they have done their job well, and their product is indeed a good one, the customer will see how other products or services do not measure up and return.

Having been in sales, I have some empathy for good sales persons and no tolerance at all for those that "run the games" on me.

If I go to a store and take the salesperson's time, especially if they are on commission, then see the item cheaper online or in another store, I will return and ask if the first store will beat (or at least match) the price. If so, I will buy it there. I think that is fair. If not, then one is free to purchase where they wish.

I happen to live in Detroit and here we have a great hat store: Henry the Hatter! I do my business with them because I have a relationship with them. They get the first shot at my business because I intend to buy more hats, want to learn more about the current status of the hat industry, need services even on hats not purchased from them, and I want a place to go for my hat needs. MY HATTER. If they do not have an item, I will ask if they can order it. If there is a cheaper price, I ask if they can match it. What I get from Henry's is something you cannot get online....personal service and face time. I will buy online if there is no other alternative. I do my research ONLINE and buy at the store.

Sorry for the rant, but when your neighbor has no money because you do not buy from him, do not be surprised when you have no money either.

I certainly do not wish to come off as lecturing anyone here as this forum is as fine a collection of people one could hope to meet. If anything I said can be interpreted in two ways and one of them is Snarky.....I meant it the other way.

Respectfully,
Al Niente

 

[Cigarband]

Absolutely! Here in Philly we have Oscar who is an inexhaustable font of information.

I buy a lot of hats on eBay (every one of my allowable 100 saved searches is hat related) but I go to Oscar for an eight dollar clean and block once a week. Best, Sam

I would love to send my hats to Oscar for a C&B. Is he set up to do mail-ins?

 

[gtdean48]

I would love to send my hats to Oscar for a C&B. Is he set up to do mail-ins?

I called him about replacing a sweatband but the guy he used for that had retired. He was set up to take ship in & out work.
http://www.southstreethats.com/

 

[mayserwegener]

I still visit and buy at hat shops. I have a couple of velour fedoras from Hippodrome Hatters in Baltimore that I wear. A Biltmore from JJ Hats in NYC. I recently picked up a straw and felt at the HatCo outlet and Garland. I have many hats (current and vintage) that I picked up at German hat shops. They tend to have new old stock hats from the 50s and 60s which is something you rarely see here.