I'm a teeny bit miffed....

[GOK]

What it sounds like you're saying is that women who pose nude end up being seen as more of a 'play thing' than a real human being?

Sometimes it can be quite fun being a plaything though! lol

Even though it is not of my personal taste, what GOK is doing at least is for a cause, most of what I see is purely for the sensationalism of it...a 'look at me!' in it's most lowest point

I hear what you are saying but earning a crust, raising one's profile, publicising something/one are all causes too. Who are we to say they are any less worthy? I'm not saying I don't agree with you, MG - just that I don't think we have the right to sit in judgement over other people, especially when we don't know them.

I tend to consciously do the same thing as many others, once I see someone that I respected posing nude, their intelligence drops many points in my book (and I'm still talking of those who do it just for the publicity)...

Now you see, I really don't understand this. I honestly do not believe that someone taking their clothes off in front of a camera for whatever reason deserves any less respect than they did prior to that. Surely they are still the same person? To me this smacks of people taking the moral high ground - something I have never been comfortable with. I find it quite sad that people (usually 'slebs) are judged like this.

though from what I've read, the media somewhat forces women into having to keep taking that 'next step'.

Perhaps it does in some case but not all. Plenty of people are more than happy to bare all and need no cajoling. It doesn't mean they are bad people.

An example that most people know in here is Ditta Von Teese...she's absolutely beautiful...now, not too long ago, I knew NOTHING of her, and at first was very impressed....she looked to have impeccable taste and highly intelligent

All this is true...

..then reading of the fettish books

Have you actually seen any of the fetish work? It is beautifully shot and not in any way lewd IMO.

I've done lots of fetish shoots - do I deserve less respect now. I don't think so. But you know what? I'm not bothered because I know (and so does everyone that is important to me) that I am a good person. I've been actively campaigning for animal rights and eco issues for over 20 years, support children's charities and go and feed the homeless - usually on Christmas day too.

I don't take drugs, smoke, drink alcohol or eat anything that has been anywhere near an animal. I'm a very intelligent woman who happens to believe that my body is mine to do with what I please. Oh, and for two years I was CEO of a successful PR agency. I am far from stupid, desperate or bullied.

I don't in any way resent the comments you've made MG, because I believe you have every right to your opinion but I do hope you don't resent mine and do respect my rights.

and someone mentioned films, which I can only assume are of the pornagraphic nature,

Why? Why do they have to be pornographic? And even if they were - she is an adult and perfectly at liberty to make such decisions. Just as you are free not to want to view such material.

there's something about that, that takes away some respect from how I saw her [huh] But the same would also go for a guy as well....you just don't see many guys baring all because the demand for it is just not there.

Actually it is there. There is huge demand for men to take off their clothes. Funny thing is that this is possibly the only industry where the men get paid a significantly lower wage than the women.

 

[mysterygal]

Of course I'm not saying women taking off their clothes takes away their humanity.....You've got to also understand, I've come from a VERY conservative background, so, this is not the way I've been raised..does this make sense? Like I said in my first post, I'm bit of a prude
Of course women are able to make their own choices...being a counselor, I tend to see all the ugliness of this side though...which hearing some of the stories I have, makes me cringe when I see some of these women doing these things since all the women I've talked to have gone into it very inocently.

 

[GOK]

Of course I'm not saying women taking off their clothes takes away their humanity.....You've got to also understand, I've come from a VERY conservative background, so, this is not the way I've been raised..does this make sense? Like I said in my first post, I'm bit of a prude
Of course women are able to make their own choices...being a counselor, I tend to see all the ugliness of this side though...which hearing some of the stories I have, makes me cringe when I see some of these women doing these things since all the women I've talked to have gone into it very inocently.

Yes, I hear what you're saying MG but you did state quite clearly that your estimation of a person's intelligence drops if you discover that they've bared all in certain situations. You didn't say this was pertinent to any of your clients, you said it was those that do it for publicity.

I have absolutely no issue with your conservative attitude - truth be known, it's good to know that there are still people around with 'good old fashioned values' - but what I do take issue with is the casual dismissal of someone your formerly held in esteem based on one aspect of their character and nothing more.

Pamela Anderson recently spoke out afainst the seal culling in Canada. Imediately she was jumped upon by the media whose sole argument was that because she had taken her clothes off and was pretty, she couldn't possibly be serious about anything of any value. Those journalists had a wonderful opportunity to do good and all the could think of doing was being thoroughly disgusting to a woman who spoke up for something she felt passionate about.

I just think that instead of wasting energy on casting aspersions on others, why not just take a step back and say; "Ok it's not my thing but they have the right to make those choices." and not think badly of them?

Ummm, that was rhetorical, and not aimed at you MG!

I am completely with you regarding the issue of abuse etc. that you touched upon - it would be completely inappropriate for me to say in here what I think should be done to such people but suffice it to say that nobody should ever be forced to do something against their will.

 

[melankomas]

What it sounds like you're saying is that women who pose nude end up being seen as more of a 'play thing' than a real human being?

an interesting view, but not what i meant (i think). i'll try again.

in response to the idea that women are damaged more seriously than men in posing nude (and by damaged, i am referring to a professional and seriously-taken reputation or image), i propose that this concept may be based on the assumption that a woman is not seen quite as professionally or as seriously in the first place. with a less solid foundation, it would be easier to topple the structure. this may or may not be valid as a subconcious motivation for the idea.

 

[GOK]

an interesting view, but not what i meant (i think). i'll try again.

in response to the idea that women are damaged more seriously than men in posing nude (and by damaged, i am referring to a professional and seriously-taken reputation or image), i propose that this concept may be based on the assumption that a woman is not seen quite as professionally or as seriously in the first place. with a less solid foundation, it would be easier to topple the structure. this may or may not be valid as a subconcious motivation for the idea.

I understand what you're saying and it is basically that we still live in an age of double standards. The general feeling is that women should at least project an image of sexlessness (is that even a word?!!) if they want to be respected whereas, a man can get away with the occasional indiscretion. I won't say he's given a pat on the back because I do think that by and large, those days are few and far between but certainly, there does seem to be more tolerance shown towards men and sex than women.

It's a real shame, I think.

So now I've started thinking about other areas of inequality. For instance, when a woman applies for a job over there, if she also happens to be a mother, does the employer ask what would happen if one of the children was ill? And what about school hols?

Employers here are not allowed to ask this because it is considered sexual discrimination but it still happens. I was asked this by a headmistress at a school where I'd applied for a post. My response was to point out that she of all people should know better than to ask such a thing but if she was prepared to answer honestly then so would I! I got the job. And never had to take any time off for my children! lol

 

[melankomas]

She was very lucky. Let us hope that her experiences have been sobering enough to make her think several steps ahead in life.

i've rather hoped that the experience strengthened her belief in the freedoms she enlisted to protect. if she learned anything, i expect it was the value of a well-thought out argument, and that her freedoms, as everyone's, are not to be taken for granted, but must be guarded carefully.

 

[mysterygal]

I understand what you're saying and it is basically that we still live in an age of double standards. The general feeling is that women should at least project an image of sexlessness
I do think however this is changing some...though it seems like the majority of work attire I see is more on the sloppy side....there are beginning to be more choices at least out there to not only look professional, but to also look like a woman as well.
I agree, it is VERY sad about how hard it is for women with younger children finding a job.
Now, so I don't keep sounding like a narrow minded cretin:
about Dita: there was mention of her films in a couple other threads around here that didn't go into the full nature of them, but, what was said was very suggestive of it being on a pornagraphic level...so yes, I did assume that was what they were talking about.
this will be the end of my discussion on this matter, but I feel I still didn't come across quite right...
nude photos: with everything, I tend to picture myself in the same scenario- Now, I'm totally proud of my body, but to have pictures out there of me being 'au' natural' would just be so weird! For me, to show someone else my birthday suit is at a level of supreme intimacy for me. To not have the control over that, uncomfortable would be a grotesque understatement. I could easily picture the thought always being at the back of my mind, "ok, this guy just smiled one of those 'goofy' smiles....does he know more than I think he does?"
Porn: I've had sex and I've been made love to...and there's a huge difference between the two. I'll admit that when me and my friends were teenagers, out of curiousity, we viewed a couple of these type of films. They were educational, for sure...but it was all just an act-sex. To me, it seemed the men looked at the woman as a piece of meat to do as they wished with. Talking with my husband, he admits that guys tend to view women in these scenarios as objects...To me, it would REALLY piss me off to be looked at or thought of as such. In this way, I fear that we may be selling ourselves short perhaps.
I view lovemaking as the most powerful bond between two people and should be held as almost sacred. Now, I agree it is fun to be the little play thing, but there needs to be more to it...tenderness.
Men like to be the king, well, us as women need to be the QUEEN, and I expect to be treated as such. Just as men have a deep need to feel admired and respected, I feel women also have that deep need to feel adored.
Without these involved, I see porn as an empty act being performed.

 

[GOK]

I do think however this is changing some...though it seems like the majority of work attire I see is more on the sloppy side

Agreed - in fact, I recall we had a long thread about it a few weeks ago.

....there are beginning to be more choices at least out there to not only look professional, but to also look like a woman as well.

I am so reminded of Bridget Jones at this point! lol

Now, so I don't keep sounding like a narrow minded cretin:

Gosh, you so couldn't be a cretin!

about Dita: there was mention of her films in a couple other threads around here that didn't go into the full nature of them, but, what was said was very suggestive of it being on a pornagraphic level...so yes, I did assume that was what they were talking about.
this will be the end of my discussion on this matter, but I feel I still didn't come across quite right...

I understand what you're saying.

nude photos: with everything, I tend to picture myself in the same scenario-Now, I'm totally proud of my body, but to have pictures out there of me being 'au' natural' would just be so weird!

And you are not alone, Sweetie. I was 40 when I did my first nude shoot! I'd never have had the confidence or savvy to have done it when I was much younger. TBH, at 40 I was incredibly chuffed that I was still deemed desirable enough for people to want to photograph me naked!

For me, to show someone else my birthday suit is at a level of supreme intimacy for me. To not have the control over that, uncomfortable would be a grotesque understatement. I could easily picture the thought always being at the back of my mind, "ok, this guy just smiled one of those 'goofy' smiles....does he know more than I think he does?"

Again, I completely understand this. It's not how I feel at all but I do see where you are coming from. I have actually had people come up to me in the street and ask if I was 'that woman' and yes they have done the knowing smile thing but when all is said and done, it comes with the uniform...in a manner of speaking. I've never had anyone be horrid to me about anything I've done, just complimentary comments. Of course, I've never actually done anything outrageously pornographic, so that may be why! However, when it comes down to it, it really doesn't actually bother me if my pics are goodness knows where. The people that count know what kind of a person I am, so I see no value in second guessing the opinions of people I have no idea even exist. Does that make sense?

Porn: I've had sex and I've been made love to...and there's a huge difference between the two.

Absolutely and each has its merits IMO!

I'll admit that when me and my friends were teenagers, out of curiousity, we viewed a couple of these type of films. They were educational, for sure...but it was all just an act-sex.

Well.....yes - that's kind of the point! lol

To me, it seemed the men looked at the woman as a piece of meat to do as they wished with. Talking with my husband, he admits that guys tend to view women in these scenarios as objects...To me, it would REALLY piss me off to be looked at or thought of as such. In this way, I fear that we may be selling ourselves short perhaps.

Now, this is what I find interesting; differing perspectives. I don't see it like that at all. I don't see women as being exploited or being treated with disrespect. Unless of course that is the tone of the 'film'. Some people get off on that. On both sides. There are plenty of people that act in 'legit' films that play abusive characters, and just because it may happen in a porn film, it doesn't make it any more true than a non-porn one. Do you see what I'm saying?

And as I mentioned before - women get paid far more to do porn than men do, so who is exploiting who?

Of course, I am not talking about seedy little back-room jobs, where the girls are all crack-whores that will do anything for the next hit. That IS exploitation and frankly, those kinds of people are really low (IMO of course!).

I view lovemaking as the most powerful bond between two people and should be held as almost sacred.

I dunno - I think trust is but I see what you mean. And yes, for two people to truly make love is a beautiful thing...and should be unsullied. Which of course is why porn films cannot replicate it. But I don't think they try.

If it wasn't a demand for it however, there then there would be no porn. If people didn't want it, it wouldn't exist. Sex is after all, the largest growth industry in the world.

Now, I agree it is fun to be the little play thing, but there needs to be more to it...tenderness.

Indeed but as much as you or I feel like that, there will be those that disagree and don't actually want that level of closeness. For some people, all they want is the act. As long as they are happy with that, why not? It's not my bag but I cannot in all honesty say it is an entirely bad thing.

Men like to be the king,

Some of them do!

well, us as women need to be the QUEEN, and I expect to be treated as such.

I prefer Goddess,myself!

Just as men have a deep need to feel admired and respected, I feel women also have that deep need to feel adored.

Absolutely but there are many ways of expressing adoration and at the end of the day, each to their own.

Without these involved, I see porn as an empty act being performed.

Absolutely...which is why it is called porn and what we (as in real people in real relationships etc) have isn't!

I've just read over this and it must seem as though I am some brazen hussy that spends all her life drooling over porn and nudity! Nothing could be farther from the truth; I'd much rather watch George Bailey than Ivor Huge'un...or whatever they may be called! lol

The George Baileys of this world rock!

 

[mysterygal]

Again, I completely understand this. It's not how I feel at all but I do see where you are coming from. I have actually had people come up to me in the street and ask if I was 'that woman' and yes they have done the knowing smile thing but when all is said and done, it comes with the uniform...in a manner of speaking. I've never had anyone be horrid to me about anything I've done, just complimentary comments. Of course, I've never actually done anything outrageously pornographic, so that may be why! However, when it comes down to it, it really doesn't actually bother me if my pics are goodness knows where. The people that count know what kind of a person I am, so I see no value in second guessing the opinions of people I have no idea even exist. Does that make sense?


You don't sound like a hussy at all, and I'm glad you are open to discuss this, since I am very interested in the other side of the issue. And please don't think I am looking down at you at all, I am one who loves to engage in conversation with people, now, there may be some things I don't necessarily agree with, but, I find all people to be enjoyable and interesting.
It must be that some women are just more comfortable with the fact. Thinking about say, if it was me included in that calendar, and I knew half of the lounge men viewed it, then say met them at an event...it would just seem strange! But, I think it would be far worse if say, I saw a calendar of the men of the lounge naked....for some that say, I was less than impressed with, I would have a huge struggle not to chuckle...but for those who did make an impression...I would be one to change 10 different shades of red the moment one of those guys walked into the room and if engaged in conversation, would be a stammering idiot!
And as you say I think it is the difference between men and women...though of course there are exceptions, that men tend to be of a more visual nature whereas women tend to be somewhat the opposite.

 

[GOK]

You don't sound like a hussy at all, and I'm glad you are open to discuss this, since I am very interested in the other side of the issue. And please don't think I am looking down at you at all, I am one who loves to engage in conversation with people, now, there may be some things I don't necessarily agree with, but, I find all people to be enjoyable and interesting.

Same here; I love hearing other people's POVs and often points are made that might not have occurred to me (see below). As we both said in our PMs, it's great to be able to discuss things in a mature and sensible way and I must say MG, you are a really cool person to 'talk' to. I hope we get the opportunity to meet IRL one day!

It must be that some women are just more comfortable with the fact. Thinking about say, if it was me included in that calendar, and I knew half of the lounge men viewed it, then say met them at an event...it would just seem strange! But, I think it would be far worse if say, I saw a calendar of the men of the lounge naked....for some that say, I was less than impressed with, I would have a huge struggle not to chuckle...but for those who did make an impression...I would be one to change 10 different shades of red the moment one of those guys walked into the room and if engaged in conversation, would be a stammering idiot!

Oh my, I didn't think of that! Imagine if there was someone you really fancied...I know I would really blush seeing them in person! I had a dream once about a man I worked with - I didn't fancy him at all but according to my dream I did. It was ages before I could look him in the eye and eventually he asked if he'd done something to upset me because I was avoiding him! lol

And as you say I think it is the difference between men and women...though of course there are exceptions, that men tend to be of a more visual nature whereas women tend to be somewhat the opposite.

Oh, no question about it - generally, men are more apt to visual stimulation than women. Of course, we claim to be deeper but....
Actually, nudie men do little for me - I prefer them clothed...far sexier! See - it's the mystery and allure!

 

[mysterygal]

Oh, no question about it - generally, men are more apt to visual stimulation than women. Of course, we claim to be deeper but....
Actually, nudie men do little for me - I prefer them clothed...far sexier! See - it's the mystery and allure!

Exactly! For me, it is more of the character or personality of a man that I find desirable.....and he's got to be intelligent! One of my weird quirks is that I love the personality type of say, Agatha Christie's character, Hercule Periot...He's impeccably dressed, eccentric (I still have no idea why this trait turns me on), and intelligent. But what shocks most people is that he's not described as being particularily handsome.

 

[GOK]

Exactly! For me, it is more of the character or personality of a man that I find desirable.....and he's got to be intelligent! One of my weird quirks is that I love the personality type of say, Agatha Christie's character, Hercule Periot...He's impeccably dressed, eccentric (I still have no idea why this trait turns me on), and intelligent.

Eccentric is great! I love quirkiness and when combined with sartorial elegance, intelligence, wit, kindness, manners, and if one is lucky, good looks....well, what can I say? Perfection!

But what shocks most people is that he's not described as being particularily handsome.

But handsome is a purely subjective term isn't it? Actually, I think this merits a separate topic - it will be interesting to hear other people's views on the subject.

 

[RetroModelSari]

fftopic:

Oh yes, "handsome" is a very wide term. I used to have a weakness for darkhaired guys with blue eyes. But my boyfriend has brown-redish hairs and brown eyes and I couldn´t imagine a better looking guy in the whole woooorld. In the beginning I couldn´t imagine him as my future boyfriend, but the better I knew him the more I discovered we are people from the same kind and love found it´s way....

 

[GOK]

Awww, that's lovely