Hospital, Dignity, Reality

[jamespowers]

What is really disturbing to me is that while many drugs treat the problem on the surface, they don't seem to prolong life or prevent serious issues. For instance, I've read a little of the research on statins. While it appears that statins do lower cholesterol, they don't actually lower the incidents of heart attacks (according to what I've read, which is really limited). But still they are prescribed to people who are borderline of needing them as far as cholesterol levels (mildly high cholesterol). And they aren't exactly cheap meds and they do have some serious side effects as far as quality of life for some people.

That is a big problem. Prescription drugs are almost a placebo at the low levels they are given or for the low levels they are treating. It hardly makes a difference. When you consider the cost for the benefit then you start really wondering.

 

[Flicka]

Yes, to measure the quality of care in how medicated people are seems really dodgy to me.

Anyway, I think our low rate of obesity (compared to many other Western countries) contributes to our overall high health. The numbers I remember looking up a while back had our level of obesity at 9% compared to over 30% for America and almost as much for the UK. Considering the health problems obesity causes, we probably have a head start on you people.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

What's the seafood intake in Sweden? In Britain, seafood used to form a massive part of the diet (unsuprising on a relatively small island where most people live close to the sea or a navigable river.

Since the industrial revolution we moved over to more agriculture-based animal protein and an ever increasing reliance on starch. Neither of these things particularly good for general health.

 

[sheeplady]

My father is on 2 statins (I think- he may be on more- he takes 7 meds- two of which are insulin and he would die without) and they have lowered his cholesterol. He eats a pretty good diet and gets plenty of exercise. But there's no evidence they will actually cut down his risk of a heart attack, and they make him really really miserable- he's tired and ornery all of the time. I think they add to his depression and I'm starting to question if they are making him more paranoid than usual and exasperating his mental illness. Of course, he's on enough stuff to mess him up royally, but when he added the statins in he got much much worse.

I don't think I'd take them for love or money, to be honest.

 

[jamespowers]

My father is on 2 statins (I think- he may be on more- he takes 7 meds- two of which are insulin and he would die without) and they have lowered his cholesterol. He eats a pretty good diet and gets plenty of exercise. But there's no evidence they will actually cut down his risk of a heart attack, and they make him really really miserable- he's tired and ornery all of the time. I think they add to his depression and I'm starting to question if they are making him more paranoid than usual and exasperating his mental illness. Of course, he's on enough stuff to mess him up royally, but when he added the statins in he got much much worse.

I don't think I'd take them for love or money, to be honest.

Yes, the problem is that prescription drugs are usually a trade off of benefit versus detriment. If you HAVE to take it to save your life then you are stuck. If you find alternatives though, I say take them.

 

[jamespowers]

Yes, to measure the quality of care in how medicated people are seems really dodgy to me.

Anyway, I think our low rate of obesity (compared to many other Western countries) contributes to our overall high health. The numbers I remember looking up a while back had our level of obesity at 9% compared to over 30% for America and almost as much for the UK. Considering the health problems obesity causes, we probably have a head start on you people.

Hmmm...I think you better tell the National Institute of public health over there that it is 9% and not 44% as they mention it here:
http://www.thelocal.se/23462/20091125/

 

[kyboots]

One of the Lipitor ( 80mgs ) studies dating back to 2005 showed significant prolongation of life in the post MI patient. Not just promoting Lipitor but there have been numerous studies demonstrating the benefits of statins over the years in cardiac patients, and significant extension ( decades ) of life in controling blood pressure in patients as well. The obesity epidemic is now >40-50% in this country. We will be the first generation to live less than our parents if not addressed. Ms. Sheeplady your dad cannot take two statins together ( extremely dangerous ). Sorry to interupt.-- John

 

[kyboots]

I really debated posting this response since I don't have the information readily at hand, but I recall reading somewhere a year or so ago that the statistics commonly quoted regarding the relative infant mortality rates between the US and other countries are extremely misleading due to the differences in the definitions of what constitutes and infant. Basically, if you compare apples to apples the infant mortality rates in the US are actually lower than most of the countries that supposedly lead us in this area. The old adage that if you torture the data long enough it will confess to anything applies here, the lesson being that before we accept any argument based on statistics we should closely examine the underlying data.

Old Rogue you are quite correct in your statistics and I too was worried about making a post as this is the " kick the Best Healthcare system down thread".Threads like this have generally been fun kicking boards for some members. Looking back they are the same. Statistics are used for whatever you want including raising money and knocking healthcare. I agree No one likes to go to the hospital. ( well most do not ); but hospitals are a business like any other and if they don't make money they don't pay their employees and close their doors.They do not have unlimited funds. One third of the hospitals in the US are losing money. They lose because insurance and Medicare have been reducing reimbursement and up to 25 % of the ER visits and admissions have no insurance and don't intend to pay. Unless they make it up on us and the others who will pay they will not stay open. Smaller hospitals cannot compete and stay open and must merge with other behemoths to survive. Four large hospitals have closed in Louisville in the past 20 years, and this is true of all large cities. I don't know where you all go for your care, but I have never seen a patient with an emergent situation turned down by any facility or physician when needing care. Emergent health care is provided in this country and I would truly be suspicious of stories to the contrary. Physicain reimbursement from standard insurance, Medicare, and medicaid has been reduced by 25% since 1995 and another 20% cut in Medicare is in the fiscal cliff. Despite these cuts employees salaries, rents, malpractice have gone up that much since 1995. In addition since it was already mentioned, Pediatricians are always taking care of kids whose parents cannot pay and this comes out of their own pockets. Physicians always try to "work " with patients without insurance but generally this means it is written off. Most physicians ? 90% ( I agree not all ), work because of a desire to help people, and that includes those without the ability to pay. They turn no one down. If you want to go to another country because you like national health care and the food is good that is fine, fortunately it is a free world, but tell that to the thousands of people and ambulances that crossed the border from Canada to go to Henry Ford Hospital every year with a true emergnecy. Wonder why they don't stay there? ( I understand the food is good ). Oh and on the FDA, yes there are slow and could move faster. Drug studies are done all over the world with patient consent. Fortunately the FDA was real slow in the 1950's about even allowing Thalidomide studies in this country. We all know where that went in Great Britain. There are many other drugs that could be listed . And when we look at longevity in this country, it will most likely be going down, but due to obesity, lack of exercise, smoking, drugs and other American avocations what do you expect?--Oh well! John

 

[sheeplady]

One of the Lipitor ( 80mgs ) studies dating back to 2005 showed significant prolongation of life in the post MI patient. Not just promoting Lipitor but there have been numerous studies demonstrating the benefits of statins over the years in cardiac patients, and significant extension ( decades ) of life in controling blood pressure in patients as well. The obesity epidemic is now >40-50% in this country. We will be the first generation to live less than our parents if not addressed. Ms. Sheeplady your dad cannot take two statins together ( extremely dangerous ). Sorry to interupt.-- John

Well, that is good news! My father is on two generics that combined together are the same as one of the statin drug combinations that is commercially available by brand name- he refers to them as his statins. So that is what I meant- sorry for the non-clarity.

His doctor gave him the option of the brand name combined statin or the generic combination (two pills), and he chose the generic as it was cheaper. Or at least that is what he told me.

 

[LizzieMaine]

If you want to go to another country because you like national health care and the food is good that is fine, fortunately it is a free world, but tell that to the thousands of people and ambulances that crossed the border from Canada to go to Henry Ford Hospital every year with a true emergnecy. Wonder why they don't stay there? ( I understand the food is good ).

Obviously this is directed at me, but you missed the point of what I said. I needed surgery that cost $25,000 in the United States. I did not have $25,000. I could not raise $25,000. I sold my house and came up with $12,000 -- and the surgery I needed could be had in Canada for $12,000. So that's where I went. My sense of patriotism ends at profiteering. And yes, the food was excellent.

 

[SHOWSOMECLASS]

Wow Lizzie you really are a person who does not compromise on personal values. I believe most people would have the surgery done and then make payments for life or declare bankruptcy.
Very sorry you had to give up your house.
You have earned my respect.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Thanks for the kind words. I have a conscience, unlike the Health Care Industry. My mother worked in a hospital for twenty years, and saw first hand the administrative feather-bedding that went on at the top levels of the operation, and was thoroughly disgusted by the whole thing.

 

[vitanola]

Old Rogue you are quite correct in your statistics and I too was worried about making a post as this is the " kick the Best Healthcare system down thread".Threads like this have generally been fun kicking boards for some members. Looking back they are the same. Statistics are used for whatever you want including raising money and knocking healthcare. I agree No one likes to go to the hospital. ( well most do not ); but hospitals are a business like any other and if they don't make money they don't pay their employees and close their doors.They do not have unlimited funds. One third of the hospitals in the US are losing money. They lose because insurance and Medicare have been reducing reimbursement and up to 25 % of the ER visits and admissions have no insurance and don't intend to pay. Unless they make it up on us and the others who will pay they will not stay open. Smaller hospitals cannot compete and stay open and must merge with other behemoths to survive. Four large hospitals have closed in Louisville in the past 20 years, and this is true of all large cities. I don't know where you all go for your care, but I have never seen a patient with an emergent situation turned down by any facility or physician when needing care. Emergent health care is provided in this country and I would truly be suspicious of stories to the contrary. Physicain reimbursement from standard insurance, Medicare, and medicaid has been reduced by 25% since 1995 and another 20% cut in Medicare is in the fiscal cliff. Despite these cuts employees salaries, rents, malpractice have gone up that much since 1995. In addition since it was already mentioned, Pediatricians are always taking care of kids whose parents cannot pay and this comes out of their own pockets. Physicians always try to "work " with patients without insurance but generally this means it is written off. Most physicians ? 90% ( I agree not all ), work because of a desire to help people, and that includes those without the ability to pay. They turn no one down. If you want to go to another country because you like national health care and the food is good that is fine, fortunately it is a free world, but tell that to the thousands of people and ambulances that crossed the border from Canada to go to Henry Ford Hospital every year with a true emergnecy. Wonder why they don't stay there? ( I understand the food is good ). Oh and on the FDA, yes there are slow and could move faster. Drug studies are done all over the world with patient consent. Fortunately the FDA was real slow in the 1950's about even allowing Thalidomide studies in this country. We all know where that went in Great Britain. There are many other drugs that could be listed . And when we look at longevity in this country, it will most likely be going down, but due to obesity, lack of exercise, smoking, drugs and other American avocations what do you expect?--Oh well! John

Thousands of ambulances a month to Henry Ford?

The hospital adminsitration itself decrys this myth.

The truth is more interesting, though perhaps less, er- useful.

Henry Ford has a contract with the Ontario Health Service to proide certain imaging services for patients in parrs of Windsor.

This contract helps Henry Ford amortize the capital expense of their medical imaging center, and obviates needless, wasteful duplication of facilities.

St Jospeh's hospital also is under contract for other procesures, again saving the Province money, and better utilizing their expensive facilities.

There is one procedure which is commnly done in the US due to waiting time- Bariatric surgery.

In Canada there is generally a very long wait, for the patient is STRONGLY encouraged to attempt to lose weight in the regular manner.

Waits for Bariatric surgery of up to five years are ot unknown.

But then Bariatry is not regarded as a profit center Up North.


Here in our part of MI there are many, many Canadian transplants, including some of our neighors. To a man they endevour to retain access to their Provincial health plans, and are amazed at the calumny directed at them in recent years.

As for the myth of no ome being turned down, well, I was turned away in ihe midst of an evolving stroke which ocurred when I was visiting my home town. I have recovered pretty well ( no thanks to the Cleveland Clinic) but have lost much of my fine motor coordination on my right side, making watch work impossible. My fiddle playing has suffered, too.

 

[vitanola]

Obviously this is directed at me, but you missed the point of what I said. I needed surgery that cost $25,000 in the United States. I did not have $25,000. I could not raise $25,000. I sold my house and came up with $12,000 -- and the surgery I needed could be had in Canada for $12,000. So that's where I went. My sense of patriotism ends at profiteering. And yes, the food was excellent.

Don't worry, Miss Maine. That old tale of the "thousands of ambulances" is a lie. One would expect no less of that sort, though.

You are not the only one here who has had to sell real estate to pay or medical care, though at least I was not living in the apartement building in question. You see, I HAD excellent though expensive insurance through an individual policy until I developed heart trouble...

 

[Flicka]

Hmmm...I think you better tell the National Institute of public health over there that it is 9% and not 44% as they mention it here:
http://www.thelocal.se/23462/20091125/

No, I'm going to tell you to read the article you linked to instead. 44% is obesity AND overweight, not obese. Two different terms, medically.

ETA: I checked an article in Läkartidningen ( Swedish medical journal) that points to a whole slew of studies that all point to obesity (not overweight, but pure obese) being in the vicinity of 10% on average.

 

[Jaguar66]

I have a conscience, unlike the Health Care Industry.

Quite a statement.

 

[Flicka]

As further evidence to what I said earlier; here's the WHO chart showing obesity in the world:

https://apps.who.int/infobase/Compa...bels=none&DDLTmpRangBK=0&DDLTmpColor=-3342388

This only measures males however, and since obesity is less common in females I think both the Swedish number of app 13 % and the app 44 % listed for Ameica exaggerates the average for the adult population as a whole.

You can get one showing obesity AND overweight too if you want, James. The overall picture is the same in both cases though, although all countries have higher stats for that.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The definition of "overweight" is a bit exaggerated these days, being based on the discredited concept of "body mass index." I'm five foot six, and weigh 162 pounds, and I'm considered "overweight," which is ridiculous. I simply have a sturdy peasant physique.

 

[jamespowers]

The definition of "overweight" is a bit exaggerated these days, being based on the discredited concept of "body mass index." I'm five foot six, and weigh 162 pounds, and I'm considered "overweight," which is ridiculous. I simply have a sturdy peasant physique.

And that is more to the point.

 

[jamespowers]

As further evidence to what I said earlier; here's the WHO chart showing obesity in the world:

https://apps.who.int/infobase/Comparisons.aspx?l=&NodeVal=WGIE_BMI_5_cd.0704&DO=1&DDLReg=ALL&DDLSex=1&DDLAgeGrp=15-100&DDLYear=2010&DDLMethod=INTMDCTM&DDLCateNum=6&TxtBxCtmNum=20%2c35%2c50%2c65%2c80&CBLC1=ON&CBLC3=ON&CBLC4=ON&CBLC6=ON&CBLC8=ON&CBLC10=ON&DDLMapsize=800x480&DDLMapLabels=none&DDLTmpRangBK=0&DDLTmpColor=-3342388

This only measures males however, and since obesity is less common in females I think both the Swedish number of app 13 % and the app 44 % listed for Ameica exaggerates the average for the adult population as a whole.

You can get one showing obesity AND overweight too if you want, James. The overall picture is the same in both cases though, although all countries have higher stats for that.

Anything from teh WHO I distrust as they have been discredited numerous time for numerous statistical fraud and anamolies.