Hmmmm... looks like Bush.

[jamespowers]

Belly Tank,

I think the best response to your concerns came from a Canadian newspaper soon after September 11:


America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on the remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them?

Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the the window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

I have only this to add. So you see this is why America does not care what the rest of the world thinks and why we keep accomplishing the impossible day after day without regard to what the world thinks because as soon as something happens in the rest of the world, we will need our independence and resourcefulness to save the rest of the world from itself once again.
We are the leaders of the free world whether the free world chooses to recognize it or not. They sure will come crawling back to us for help when they need it. It is just a matter of time. And what will we say? "Go away you cheese eating surrender monkey" or "See if your Mercedes can out run a SAM"? No. We will be there to help regardless of how we were treated previously.
This is why I am proud to be an American and do not care if the children from England wrote letters to voters in Ohio telling American voters to vote for John Kerry. In fact, it probably helped elect GW. Thanks! The same is true about the video from Osama. We are Americans and we cannot be blackmailed. There is no way that foreign indignance can erase the American graves on the coast of France, it cannot erase the losses our families here have endured to protect those that need protecting since WWII either. I really do not need to say God Bless America because it is obvious He has.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Matt Deckard]

Aside from all the USA hooray rhetoric.

We still have Bush. Bush is not who I wanted to pic... too many issues he sides with that I dissagree with. I picked Bush because I didn't trust Kerry when it came to taking care of our troops.

the concerns of stem cell research, abortion and gay marriage in my opinion are outweighed by the fact that the world is in a slump right now. Oil is at all time price highs and globally we are spreading our troops thin. Bush got us into Iraq and I didn't think Kerry could get us out.

 

[Renderking Fisk]

Belly… it’s the ARROGANCE that’s ruining the Global Community’s relationship with The United States and that’s costing you.

Perfect exsample is the United Nation’s “Oil For Food� scandel, my favorate. France Germany and Russia DEMAND that we give santions a chance to work while they’re screwing us behind the scenes with Saddam so he’s ready to terrorize the world again as soon as the santions are lifted.

The UN is the same institution that curses us out, insults us to our face and schemes behind our backs then tries to give us a guilt trip and ask that we dig deep in our pockets when they’re looking for hand-outs. The UN and the International Community begs for our support but denied helping us out when we needed it most.

One of the reasons why Kerry LOST is because he seemed to care what the eilites in The Interational Community thinks more then the voters of The United States.

Liberals and Internationalists have something in common: they mock and ridicule us because we believe in God and traditional values. they get pissy because we’re not as secular or socialistic as Europe. they have the attitude that you know better then us, we’re too stupid to understand the “Neuances� of the world, while you fail to see there are “Black And White� issues such as “Good VS Evil�… and you forget history! they NEVER remember that Appesment does nothing more then give Evil Regiems time to build forces to terrorize the world. And we’re sick and tired of getting insulted after every time we save their sorry asses.

 

[jamespowers]

Originally posted by Renderking Fisk
They NEVER remember that Appeasment does nothing more than give Evil Regiems time to build forces to terrorize the world.

Two words that Europe does not seem to remember: "Neville Chamberlain." Remember this fellow?

 

[BellyTank]

“Belly… it’s the ARROGANCE that’s ruining the Global Community’s relationship with The United States and that’s costing you.�

I definitely do understand what you mean- it must be hard to stomach someone from outside the USA talking to you about such things. So if I personally seem arrogant, let me apologise in advance- just keep in mind that I’m not trying to be. It is difficult for me to even broach such subjects and believe me, I have re-written my messages to this forum several times for just that reason. I’m just trying to understand where these feelings and sentiment come from.
It’s just that we “Europeans� are genuinely becoming more than a little worried about the way the US is dealing with international issues. Of course everyone who receives aid from the US is very glad for the help. And of course the world at large is grateful for the help the US gave in WW2 and after- and the allied efforts in WW2 were truly a great effort by an international community to fight evil. And that is long ago now. I have many American friends, both living in the US and in Europe and many of them are very concerned too about the way America seems to be headed. It’s very different for Americans living outside the US compared to those within, I guess- some subjective distance seems to make for a big difference of opinion. I realise Bush won fair and square but don’t forget that almost half didn’t vote for him and there were large swings against him from traditional Rep. voters, as of course there were vice versa. In Europe, as elsewhere, we realise that Politicians have private agendas that will never be spoken and that there is generally a hidden agenda behind every apparently benign or benevolent political action- we take it for granted. But we also live in a community of countries, which by nature is self regulating and moderating. What really gets to people over here and has for some time now is, of course, the “war� in Iraq. We hear US public sentiment like “drop a big ‘nuke on Baghdad� and “bombs save lives�, I realise that this kind of garbage is extreme and not from the mouths of rational, thinking people but we still hear it, so we know those sentiments still exist- that kind of thing is really scary- what have people been told to make them even think such things could be remotely helpful or acceptable. Where we take what politicians say with a grain of salt, it seems that many Americans take it to heart and believe the political rhetoric and lies and will always defend their politicians and believe them unwaveringly. If you want to justify going to war with a country, of course you will encourage your public to believe that country is evil or is coveting “weapons of mass destruction� and the like. Such clichés are bandied about and soon become embedded in the national psyche as being the “truth�. It also seems that to question your politicians is now seen to be very un-patriotic- very un-American but isn’t that what living in a democracy is all about. Mike Moore is taking such a slamming but do you think there is absolutely no truth in what he’s saying? I think that to challenge the Politicians, the Brass, the people who make money from making wars is a very Democratic act. It seems that all Moore’s doing is trying to make America look at itself, to question the motives of those in positions of privelege and power- those America looks up to- trusts- looks to for guidance and justifications for actions. But I guess also, to do so in an environment of perceived threatened national security and being at war is seen to be un-patriotic. Bad timing or good?
Or is it that America is looking at itself and doesn’t like what it sees?
“We� outside of America have perceptions of America that obviously differ from yours- those who do live in the US- but we all have the same access to information- we just don’t share a common culture. We also have perceptions of our own European countries that don’t differ that much from yours. Maybe you see TV news and read the papers and see anti-American sentiment but I have never come into contact with anyone who HATES America- Americans, I certainly don’t. Same as what we have seen- Americans slamming France, some really hateful stuff. I live in Denmark, which is traditionally “Socialistic�- we have a social welfare system, pay high taxes and everything works fine. But the current Government is a coalition- Conservative with a Right-wing minority- it’s pretty scary- The “Conservative� govt. which is not very conservative at all is having to bend over to the Right-wing, passing legislation that is suddenly very anti-foreigners but is basically in practical effect, totally anti-Islamic sentiment veiled as Pro-Denmark.
This has been brewing since before 9/11. Moslems seem to be seen as a threat here because their culture is so different. Some of the political views here in the last few years have been absolutely pathetic- “Moslems can never be truly integrated into Danish society until they take their scarves off and start eating pork� what kind of mad nonsense is that? It’s just the same as saying “Moslems will never become integrated into Danish society PERIOD� It’s really hard to see how this coalition with an extreme Right-wing faction was actually elected here- but when you have a tight-knit society and you get them riled up with pro-national sentiment- teel them how to preserve OUR country- maintain security- safety and don’t tell the whole story, it is apparently do-able. Denmark is a very proud, nationalistic country- a nice country but what is nice about it is fast becoming diminished.
“There’s something rotten in the State of Denmark…�
I’m not a Dane- I’ve lived in other places- it seems that many Danes can’t see what’s happening to their own country. And no, I’m not “gifted� with super clear vision or anything, neither am I arrogant- I just have some distance that others don’t seem to- maybe through having lived in a couple of different countries. Maybe the locals just don’t want to acknowledge what’s happening here- maybe they don’t mind- maybe they wouldn’t speak it aloud but maybe they’re happy with this.
And I guess- there is good and evil, but in my way of thinking there is Right and Wrong, sometimes very wrong. But one needs to be very careful and very sure which one we apply each label to because right OR wrong, these judgements tend to stick and “Evil� it seems, is a much more damaging label than “wrong�.


We have things we don’t like over here too you know. It’s not like we think everything’s perfect over here and in Europe. But when a “Super-Power� is taking the law into it’s own hands, it IS surely everybody’s business.

And to Edge-

“We have the strictest environmental regulations�-
What about the Kyoto summit then?

BTank.

 

[jamespowers]

Gee, that is great just ignore the "right wing" and watch your country get taken over without a shot. Then you will wonder what happened in a few years and say: "Gee, maybe we should have listened a bit more." Don't forget that Chancellor Hitler was elected duly by the people. I often find that people get the type of government they deserve. If they just sit by and blasély ignore what is happening then do not complain when it knocks at your door and comes for you.
Let’s remember that America was attacked. We did not exactly run out there without provocation. As for weapons of mass destruction, Sadam Hussein is a weapon of mass destruction! Let’s face it the Europeans benefited from having him there with their factitious food for oil plan. Gee, that really worked. People died and starved in Iraq while France, Germany and Russia got oil below market rates and the UN’s Koffi Anon has a son that is getting kickbacks from the Iraqi government. How nice. What a set up. I wouldn’t have wanted it changed either if I was a crooked socialist ideologue either. The opposition had a basis in largess not some ridiculous objection to how the US is dealing with international issues! They were worried that their gravy train would screech to a grinding halt---and it did. What a shame.
Iraq is now a battle ground for the terrorists and us as Americans would rather fight them over there than in the streets of our own nation. It is called preemption. Iraq is now an area that attracts terrorists from every screwball nation around them. They rack them up and we knock them down like bowling pins. We had enough of them bombing us here and abroad while previous administrations did nothing to curtail their activities. It is now stand and deliver time.
Americans abroad and living abroad are not at all like Americans that are her in America---let’s face it. Those living in Europe are there for political reasons. They left the US because it was too capitalistic for them and they couldn’t handle it. They moved to socialist nations where they could depend on huge amounts of vacation time, free health care, free drugs (in some cases) and a guaranteed living whether they worked or not. You can have them. They cause a huge drag on our society since they do not even try to pull their own weight. The problem is that when they get sick; they come back for treatment because they are likely to die in rationed “free health care.�
Dissent is not un-American. It has been the basis of our country since the beginning. If you doubt it then read The Federalist Papers. The loyal dissenters are one thing but Michael Moore is a master of the art of omission. It is not that what he put forth is completely false but there is the other half of the story that makes it false completely. You have to ask yourself what country is actually passing laws infringing on free speech. The US or places such as England where they recently passed a law regarding speech that limits free speech previously granted to them through common law! I am sure they probably did not understand its consequences but the result is the same. Ask countries that are even further left like China and North Korea what free speech means and they will show you the end of a gun! The answer is there is no such thing.
Denmark has as much right to protect itself as we do. If they want to pass such laws then fine. I, as an American have nothing to say because I am thousands of miles away and the results will have no effect on me one way or the other. I wish Europeans had the same attitude. Sovereign nations have the right to govern themselves. It is when they start to attack others in an unprovoked manner---like Germany, Korea, and a host of other nations---which we have to step in and intervene.
Let me tell you that there are things here in America that I do not like either but I work within the system to change them. It might take me a lifetime but I will still try to the end. There is enough to do in my own country that I am not concerned with what Europe thinks. I am too busy for that.
As far a Kyoto is concerned, have you read it? I have---all 800 and some odd pages! Most of it would cripple the US by forcing us to accept regulations that are far beyond a baseline that is possible while letting countries like Russia and China get away with polluting to the high heaven by allowing them to start with a goal that is far higher than they already have! You want to talk pollution. Go into any communist country and see what pollution really is. Russia is awash in it even now after changing their government structure. Chernobyl is just one example then you can go to the gulags in the countryside and see what a mess was made of it. China is the same way with the internal part of their country ruined by cultivating rice for centuries without crop rotation. The resulting practice leached the salt out of the soil strata and up to the surface—making the soil sterile for growing even weeds! The most polluted city in America is better than such examples that make an area uninhabitable.
This is not rhetoric. It is fact. Check it all out. I have been to many countries in my life time and I always come back to the US and kiss the ground. If there were not such sentiments around the world then why do we have such a huge amount of immigration---both legally and illegally? They should all be running out to China and Russia if they were such great nations.
I do not defend the politicians. I am defending the American people. There is only one way to look at politicians all over the globe and that is to look down.

Regards to all,

J

 

[The_Edge]

Originally posted by BellyTank


It’s just that we “Europeans� are genuinely becoming more than a little worried about the way the US is dealing with international issues. Of course everyone who receives aid from the US is very glad for the help. And of course the world at large is grateful for the help the US gave in WW2 and after- and the allied efforts in WW2 were truly a great effort by an international community to fight evil. And that is long ago now. [/i]

Once again, after all the U.S. has done for the world you “Europeans� are worried about us. Take a look at your own backyard. BTW, WWII was only sixty years ago. The Cold War was ended less than twenty years ago and Red China and North Korea are still a growing threats. Islamic terror has been on the rise for over thirty years and we have only recently become engaged in this war. It aint over yet.

Originally posted by BellyTank
I have many American friends, both living in the US and in Europe and many of them are very concerned too about the way America seems to be headed. It’s very different for Americans living outside the US compared to those within, I guess- some subjective distance seems to make for a big difference of opinion. [/i]

Uh, so?

Originally posted by BellyTank
I realise Bush won fair and square but don’t forget that almost half didn’t vote for him and there were large swings against him from traditional Rep. voters, as of course there were vice versa.

I'm searching for a valid point here. President Bush is the first in sixteen years to win both the popular and electoral vote. In addition, he garnered more votes than at any other time in history. You said it yourself, he won fair and square. So why should the losing minority be of concern. This isn't grade school where in order to avoid hurt feelings we give everyone a special prize at the end of the contest. Democrats and liberals have been whining for four years that the President didn't win the majority of the country and therefore has no right to push his agenda. Well, now he has and all of a sudden he is supposed to concede to the losing side just to make people 'feel' better?

Originally posted by BellyTank
In Europe, as elsewhere, we realise that Politicians have private agendas that will never be spoken and that there is generally a hidden agenda behind every apparently benign or benevolent political action- we take it for granted. But we also live in a community of countries, which by nature is self regulating and moderating.[/i]

What the hell are you talking about? Hidden agendas, maybe. But self-regulating community of countries? Yeah, the world has done a bang up job of regulating itself.

Originally posted by BellyTank
What really gets to people over here and has for some time now is, of course, the “war� in Iraq.

Now we get to the real crux of the matter...

Originally posted by BellyTank
We hear US public sentiment like “drop a big ‘nuke on Baghdad� and “bombs save lives�, I realise that this kind of garbage is extreme and not from the mouths of rational, thinking people but we still hear it, so we know those sentiments still exist- that kind of thing is really scary- what have people been told to make them even think such things could be remotely helpful or acceptable.

Historical fact, my friend. After all the old world has been through you still fail to understand that in order to keep freedom and peace you must be willing to fight and destroy those that threaten it. Ask those three hundred school children and teachers in Beslan how they feel about killing terrorists in order to save lives. Oh, that's right, they're dead.

Originally posted by BellyTank
... It also seems that to question your politicians is now seen to be very un-patriotic- very un-American but isn’t that what living in a democracy is all about. Mike Moore is taking such a slamming but do you think there is absolutely no truth in what he’s saying? I think that to challenge the Politicians, the Brass, the people who make money from making wars is a very Democratic act. It seems that all Moore’s doing is trying to make America look at itself, to question the motives of those in positions of privelege and power- those America looks up to- trusts- looks to for guidance and justifications for actions. But I guess also, to do so in an environment of perceived threatened national security and being at war is seen to be un-patriotic. Bad timing or good?
Or is it that America is looking at itself and doesn’t like what it sees?

Michael Moore is a propagandist. You speak of politicians and their "hidden agendas" yet you accept Moore's vitriolic attacks and lies as noble and patriotic. One is never going to agree 100% with a politician but in order to fight for what you want represented you must choose the candidate that most closely suits your position(s). I have many issues that I think the President is way off base with but he is the man I most closely identify with and therefore will support. Just because you see Americans rally behind their leader doesn't mean they are blindly following him. To use Moore as an example of honest political dissent is actually pretty ignorant, IMO.

Originally posted by BellyTank
I live in Denmark, which ... is suddenly very anti-foreigners but is basically in practical effect, totally anti-Islamic sentiment veiled as Pro-Denmark.

This has been brewing since before 9/11. Moslems seem to be seen as a threat here because their culture is so different. Some of the political views here in the last few years have been absolutely pathetic- “Moslems can never be truly integrated into Danish society until they take their scarves off and start eating pork� what kind of mad nonsense is that?

Denmark is a very proud, nationalistic country- a nice country but what is nice about it is fast becoming diminished.

Do you realize that the traditional population of Europe is declining rapidly due to a diminishing birth rate and that the Muslim population is increasing there? It won't be long before you will be the minority and then who do you think is going to be calling the shots? That's right, Muslims. Your Danish government, as well as France and other European nations, are very aware of this trend and are scrambling to suppress Muslim traditions with law. But it is going to take much more than laws to stop. A complete overhaul in your thinking is required. If the people of Denmark are so proud and nationalistic then they should be fearful of what is happening to their culture. If not, then their lack of national pride will give way to Islamic law in the coming decades.

Originally posted by BellyTank
We have things we don’t like over here too you know. It’s not like we think everything’s perfect over here and in Europe. But when a “Super-Power� is taking the law into it’s own hands, it IS surely everybody’s business.

It sure is everybody's business. Because since the USA is one of the few nations on earth with the balls of steel to take on Islamo-fascist terror, you and the rest of the world will once again benefit from us saving your asses.

Originally posted by BellyTank
And to Edge-

“We have the strictest environmental regulations�-
What about the Kyoto summit then?

Do you have any idea what the Kyoto agreement would do? It basically puts all the restrictions on the United States and does very little to hold anyone else accountable. It would greatly stymie the U.S.’ economic capabilities and give the United Nations some much desired control over how the U.S. exercises its interests. President Bush was right on to tell them to take a hike. Once again you fail to recognize those “hidden agendas� you seem to be so worried about.

 

[MDFrench]

james',

I completely agree with 99% of what you said. Hear hear. However, I would like to respectfully add one statement regarding this comment you made:

"Americans abroad and living abroad are not at all like Americans that are her in America---let’s face it. Those living in Europe are there for political reasons. They left the US because it was too capitalistic for them and they couldn’t handle it. They moved to socialist nations where they could depend on huge amounts of vacation time, free health care, free drugs (in some cases) and a guaranteed living whether they worked or not. You can have them. They cause a huge drag on our society since they do not even try to pull their own weight. The problem is that when they get sick; they come back for treatment because they are likely to die in rationed “free health care.� - jamespowers

Maybe some are like that, but then there are those like my family who lived in England for four years because my father's business took him there. He was not running from a capitalist society. He was there because an American company needed him to be there, just like the workers in Iraq and employees for many US companies abroad. These men and women are loyal to their country. Some may disagree with Bush's politics, some won't, but I do not think that all Americans live abroad for the reasons you stated. Most are pro-American people doing what America needs them to do to serve its business, political, and military interests.

 

[The_Edge]

James,

I honestly had no idea you posted that as I was writing my response. We're definitely on the same wave length.

 

[Renderking Fisk]

The Liberals STILL don’t get it. Even after Tuesday, they’re still clueless. They’re scoffing about the Higher Moral Mandate of 11/02/04… it’s that scoffing that cost them.

More then half of the United States went to the polls and rejected the Leftist agenda. Like me, they felt tired of being ignored and treated as if we’re stupid. “Oh, you poor Christian… you’re not progressive enough, you believe in Fairy Tales like the one about the radical rabbi who was nailed to a piece of wood so he could ‘die for your sins’… that’s so funny!�

American’s also rejected the message from pampered performers who were trying to tell them what to do.

If you look to Michael Moore who’s nothing more then a liar and propagandist, and take his message as fact and truth… you need some SERIOUS help. I’m really scared for people who buy his schtick.

Belly, there's a condescending tone to your last post. You don’t get it anymore then the elitists in the media do. This is a backlash against Liberal “values�. People want a return to traditional values and the “Progressive� agenda needs to be trashed. Because the more Liberals insist that we believe what they believe, the more we push away.

 

[MDFrench]

Fisk,

I concur with the bulk of your assessment of the US climate, but I think that the pushing away is rather mutual, like the poles of a magnet contacting with the same poles of another and resisting.

Many liberals see Bush's alleged "unilateralism" as the right pushing on the left, just as many here feel that the left has pushed on them.

Nobody likes to be pushed, I grant you. But there are many pushers on both sides. I only hope that rather than pushing, a dialogue akin to this forum will be opened for lefts and rights to come together as Americans and try to find common ground.

I believe that it is through influence, not argument, that brings about understanding and change.

I hope to one day live in an America where people realize that it is a man who makes the choice to kill and should be imprisoned, not a gun to be blamed and taken from citizens. I hope to live in an America where abortion is a legend, a myth that sits in the history books, not because someone banned it, but because values were reinstilled in society to such a degree that sexual responsibility was of paramount concern, and abstinence before marriage a reflex, at a level that abortion doesn't exist simply because there is no alleged reason for it.

Then again, I am an idealist. I want to see crime cease. I want racism on all sides to desist. I want men to hold doors for women again. I want young women to wear tasteful attire. I want kids raised with both parents and I want parents to teach their kids manners.

It's a pipe dream, but it keeps me going. Tonight someone told me in a complimentary way, "Michael, you were born in the wrong century. You hold onto these ideals and values and chivalric attitudes that society doesn't value anymore."

Well, I've rambled long enough. Time for bed.

 

[jamespowers]

Originally posted by MDFrench

Maybe some are like that, but then there are those like my family who lived in England for four years because my father's business took him there. He was not running from a capitalist society. He was there because an American company needed him to be there, just like the workers in Iraq and employees for many US companies abroad. These men and women are loyal to their country. Some may disagree with Bush's politics, some won't, but I do not think that all Americans live abroad for the reasons you stated. Most are pro-American people doing what America needs them to do to serve its business, political, and military interests.

Ah, there is that particular segment that I did not mean to mix with the ex-patriots that are there for the free stuff.
The workers in Iraq are being paid up to five times the going rate for their work due to the hazzardous nature of the area. I wouldn't go there for ten times what I make. Those guys are either pretty brave or desperate.

Regards to all,

J

 

[jamespowers]

Originally posted by The_Edge
James,

I honestly had no idea you posted that as I was writing my response. We're definitely on the same wave length.

I noticed that a few minutes after I posted mine. LOL LOL I think you closed the loop on some of my ideas though.

 

[kamikat]

"I'm searching for a valid point here. President Bush is the first in sixteen years to win both the popular and electoral vote. In addition, he garnered more votes than at any other time in history."

Everyone keeps throwing this around. However, did you know that Kerry also got more votes than any other candidate. Voter turner out was so high that both candidates' numbers alone were impressive. Also, keep in mind that there were over 1 million voters who voted a third party candidate. Combine those with Karry's numbers and Bush only wins the people by less than 3 million. I'm not sure I'd call that a clear mandate.

kamikat

 

[The_Edge]

Originally posted by kamikat

I'm not sure I'd call that a clear mandate.
kamikat

 

[jamespowers]

Edge you should mention that your map is a map of all the counties in the entire United States. The red represents the vote for Bush and the Blue represents the vote for Kerry.
What this shows is that aside from a very few number of big cities on either coast and a handful in between, the vote was clearly on Bush's side. Simple and understandable.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Marlowe]

Edge, you might also mention that your map shows county-by-county results by majority only. Therefore, counties that barely had a majority for Bush will be just as red as ones that were ding-nigh unanimous. (And vice-versa, obviously, for the blue counties.)

Also, just because most of the country looks red on the map doesn't mean that the country voted for Bush in the same proportion. Most of the red counties are, in fact, in rural areas having lower population per squre mile figures than Boston, New York, Miami, Chicago, San Fransisco/Oakland, etc.

 

[Scarlet Belle]

Hi all! I am curious to know how you guys feel about not having to vote? In Australia it is compulsory for EVERYONE over the age of 18 to vote, with hefty fines if you dont. I guess there are good and bad points to both ways, but Im interested to know if your structure creates apathy or more of an interest in what the parties are offering.

 

[MK]

Originally posted by MDFrench
Fisk,

I concur with the bulk of your assessment of the US climate, but I think that the pushing away is rather mutual, like the poles of a magnet contacting with the same poles of another and resisting.

Many liberals see Bush's alleged "unilateralism" as the right pushing on the left, just as many here feel that the left has pushed on them.

Nobody likes to be pushed, I grant you. But there are many pushers on both sides. I only hope that rather than pushing, a dialogue akin to this forum will be opened for lefts and rights to come together as Americans and try to find common ground.

I believe that it is through influence, not argument, that brings about understanding and change.

I hope to one day live in an America where people realize that it is a man who makes the choice to kill and should be imprisoned, not a gun to be blamed and taken from citizens. I hope to live in an America where abortion is a legend, a myth that sits in the history books, not because someone banned it, but because values were reinstilled in society to such a degree that sexual responsibility was of paramount concern, and abstinence before marriage a reflex, at a level that abortion doesn't exist simply because there is no alleged reason for it.

Then again, I am an idealist. I want to see crime cease. I want racism on all sides to desist. I want men to hold doors for women again. I want young women to wear tasteful attire. I want kids raised with both parents and I want parents to teach their kids manners.

It's a pipe dream, but it keeps me going. Tonight someone told me in a complimentary way, "Michael, you were born in the wrong century. You hold onto these ideals and values and chivalric attitudes that society doesn't value anymore."

Well, I've rambled long enough. Time for bed.

Amen brother. That would be wonderful...but until Jesus returns, I doubt that will happen as a whole. The good thing though is that we can have pockets of areas that are like that. Here in Vancouver Washington it is kind of like that...at least on the surface....or perhaps it is because I am new here. I will say people are a lot nicer than in LA.

 

[MDFrench]

Really? Sounds like the hamlets and villages in the English countryside. I'll have to come visit sometime.

Belle - That's very interesting. I have often said to myself, "Man, they should fine people in this country for neglecting their right to vote."

I'd say in theory it sounds like a great idea, but I haven't given it enough thought to determine cons, though I am sure there are some. I will always vote, and never shirk that responsibility. I have little to no respect for people who take their freedom for granted to the degree that they neglect their civic duty.

If for nothing else, everyone should have voted here in the US on Nov 2 for the boys and girls in Iraq who are dying to preserve that right for all of us. I feel that was the ultimate show of support for our troops, regardless of how you feel about the war itself.

Mike