Historic Hillwalking

[H.Johnson]

Mr. Past,

Ventile (R) is, of course woven today under licence and smallish quantities (e.g. 'fent ends') are available (albeit in unauthorised form) from various sources. See the Performance Fabrics catalogue. Its scarcity is somewhat mythical, unless you want to go into mass production.

Grenfell cloth is no longer made (or, more accurately, is made in name only) since the takeover of the company. There are records of interesting dialogue between the War Department and the Haythornthwaite family over the military use of the cloth (or lack of it) and WW2 and later the contentious isse of its use on the 1952-3 Everest expedition.

Professor Mary Rose (guess who is her husband?) is the most authoritative source on Lancashire cotton. She is, of course, joint author of 'Invisible on Everest' and was the drive behind the 1924 expedition clothing (this has been well covered in other threads on the forum). The lady who actually made the clothing for the project has full specifications and patterns (in my size, as it happens) but prefers not to be bothered for now. I have been in communication with her, but she is contemplating production of the items and so I think it unreasonable to place demands on her. The cloth for the jackets was woven specially by one of Burberry's suppliers (who I undertsand have since ceased to trade).

If by 'canvas' you mean a weave without a twill, there is no reason why it shouldn't be windproof and yet tough enough for a rucksack - it depends on the tightness of the spun fibre and the closeness of the resulting weave. My 1930s Bergan rucksack is relatively lightweight and is in a closely woven fabric - not quite like Ventile (R) but not far off. Much lighter than a modern Swedish military ruckack, which it most closely resembles.

Have you seen the types of cloth from which the wartime British windproof suits are made (I mean originals, not reproductions)?

 

[Story]

There is also a reference to handkerchiefs being worn by hikers in The Long Weekend : A Social History of Great Britain 1918-1939 By Robert Graves and Alan Hodge. ' ...dressed like pirates, with coloured handkerchiefs around their heads.'

Not unlike Mr Gumby & friends.

 

[Creeping Past]

Thanks for your compendious response, HJ.

it depends on the tightness of the spun fibre and the closeness of the resulting weave. [...]

I guessed as much. Would you be able to point me towards a handy reference showing the number threads per sq inch in different types of cotton weave, including canvas? I'm becoming very interested in this subject.

Have you seen the types of cloth from which the wartime British windproof suits are made (I mean originals, not reproductions)?

Do you mean those suits famously re-used in Oman? No, I've not seen those outside books, unfortunately. I've come face to face with the V-word fabric and with gabardine, but not one of those suits.

Surely, she's Mr Parsons's Mrs...

 

[H.Johnson]

Not unlike Mr Gumby & friends.

No, that's not hiking wear, that's British beachwear, 1950's style...

 

[H.Johnson]

Thanks for your compendious response, HJ.

I guessed as much. Would you be able to point me towards a handy reference showing the number threads per sq inch in different types of cotton weave, including canvas? I'm becoming very interested in this subject.

Do you mean those suits famously re-used in Oman? No, I've not seen those outside books, unfortunately. I've come face to face with the V-word fabric and with gabardine, but not one of those suits.

Surely, she's Mr Parsons's Mrs...

Mr. Past,

Most canvas is classed as 'even woven' or evenweave - meaning that the number of weft threads is equal to the number of warp threads. Ventile (R) cotton is not in this category, the warp being about three times more numerous in thread count than the weft.

A nice cotton shirt fabric may have a thread count of about 150 threads per inch. Finely woven Egyptian cotton as used in luxury bedding (the stuff that feels like silk) will have a thread count of around 200. There are several grades of Ventile (R) but I understand from the trademark holder's literature that the finest grade (L34) will have a thread count of 240 and a weight of around 170gsm - about twice as heavy as paper! That is mind-boggling. I just can't imagine setting up a loom to weave that tight. Also, the yarn from which Ventile (R) is woven has a high 'twist factor' (twist turns per inch or TTPI) which makes it crisp. It is made from the longest staple cotton, and appears only slightly 'slubby' under a magnifier. Fascinating stuff.

IMO the best (certainly the cheapest - 10GBP should get you a fair large one, or unissued in a small size) British vintage-ish military windproof garment is the 'Smock, Windproof, Cadets' of the 1950s and 60s. These (the early versions, anyway) were made up from the same type of fabric as the wartime windproof smock. Their classic anorak styling recalls the 'Heroes of Telemark' film.

Just my opinion.

 

[Creeping Past]

Thanks, HJ, much appreciated. You'll have guessed by now that I'm a relative novice in the vintage game and don't have a hold on garment lingo yet...

I noticed in Invisible on Everest that the windproof cotton was woven on special looms, presumably super-strengthened ones. I guess this is all part of the R and TM status of Ventile.

I've been looking out for a suitable windproof in my size (XL) for ages. No luck yet, but it's only a matter of time.

Meanwhile, I've a wartime style anorak on order from Steve Kiddle at Pegasus, which I'm looking forward to trying out.

 

[H.Johnson]

Thanks, HJ, much appreciated. You'll have guessed by now that I'm a relative novice in the vintage game and don't have a hold on garment lingo yet...

I noticed in Invisible on Everest that the windproof cotton was woven on special looms, presumably super-strengthened ones. I guess this is all part of the R and TM status of Ventile.

I've been looking out for a suitable windproof in my size (XL) for ages. No luck yet, but it's only a matter of time.

Meanwhile, I've a wartime style anorak on order from Steve Kiddle at Pegasus, which I'm looking forward to trying out.

Yes. the frames were usually stronger and narrower. Steve's stuff is wonderful - at a price. You're clearly off to a good start.

At the moment I'm planning the manufacture of an anorak - I have one set of patterns from a 1950s cadet smock and I am making another set from a 1940s anorak I found recently. When I have prototypes from both I intend to evaluate the designs back-to-back in a punishing test to destruction on a picnic to my favourite tea shop at Water-cum-Jolly. The winning design will go into mass production - possibly a run of two.

 

[Creeping Past]

That sounds like a nice little project. Was the cadet smock the find from the septuagenarian's ex-Boy Scout's loft? Good luck with the gruelling tea-time test! I hope it rains (for all the right reasons).

My new items of vintage walking kit are subjected to the Lewes Arms test. If they make it from my place and over the Downs to the public bar of the Lewes Arms in one piece without harming or inconveniencing me, they're considered approved.

Yes, Steve's garments are excellent. I'm also looking forward to a cotton 'greyback' in the soon-to-come parcel from him. He made me a pair of 1920 pattern (or is that '22? I'm not so bothered with the dates of things) khaki wool trousers a while back, which are going strong and would have been very welcome in the snow flurries today if they'd not been out of rotation. My Old Town serge Vauxhalls were my cold weather trou' of choice this morning, although unlike Steve's 'elephant hide' fabric they needed a bit of thermal help underneath.

Would you consider posting photos of the winning design here? I'm sure there are many who'd appreciate the visual inspiration. If you fear pics would benefit the many commercial enterprises that, no doubt, have by now cottoned on to this resource, a vague technical description mentioning various anorak types would be welcome.

 

[H.Johnson]

Good stuff! That'll be '22 pattern if it isn't '02. Some people modify '22 pattern for WW1 re-enacting.

Is it the white version of the greyback shirt (if you see what I mean)?

No, the cadet smocks are to be found in surplus stores all over the land. The find from the septuagenarian's ex-Boy Scout's loft is the Uniform Brand anorak that will be the source of pattern no. 2.

It always rains in the Derbyshire Dales. I hate taking photographs (too modern for me) but I may have someone produce an etching of the winning design if the opportunity arises. Would a verbal description suffice?

 

[Creeping Past]

Well that's my memory jogged. I meant, of course, '02. Steve would not be pleased I got that wrong! Just for the record, he makes the finest reproduction 1902 pattern khaki wool trousers in the world!

Yes, one in white and another in blue, just for a change. The anorak's blue, too.

Verbals more than adequate, ta.

I'm sitting here on my day off watching Jonathan Creek and periodically checking FL and email. I've a full day off tomorrow. I will go hillwalking.

 

[Creeping Past]

Limmer — fine boots

I'm going to get a pair of Limmer's hiking boots.

They're not vintage, but they're an old-style boot and that's good enough for me. Limmer makes fine boots. They're an excellent company with a great reputation that takes an interest in their customers.

I may post some photographs, pencil sketches or lino cut illustrations, when they arrive.

 

[dit dah]

Right we are then. Start again.

Mr Past, I could integrate some of what I already own but this would negate the need for new, expensive and unnesessary purchasing. I'm not ready to deny myself that, fragile as I am, approaching the big four o.

I do have a nice pair of boots which I will try and photograph (yeah yeah heard it before) but also like these:

http://www.williamlennon.co.uk/footwear/107f-field-boot.html

And if I weren't pitching up at mid life in such a disastrous financial state I would have to have these:

http://www.taylormadeshoes.co.uk/bespoke_mens_boots_walking.htm

A snip at £1500. I am a stranger to the hob nails but bow to the knowledge here. Are they suitable for 265 miles in 2 weeks? The sack is causing me some grief (probably my age) as all the vintage ones I've had are/were a little "saggy" and unstructured. I like the Duluth Wanderer and love this:

http://seil-marschall-shop.de/produ...en/info/p21_ORIG-CANOEPACK-SMALL--Twill-.html

This pack has the rustic "brown" quality I admired in Frost River's stuff. I could go military but not sure. Just missed an nice 50's "Uniform" number on Ebay.

I too am drawn to making an anorak but the essential skills elude me. Maybe HJ will sell me one of his. I'm looking at Solomon Adler's windproof smock and Schipperfabrik's rubberized poncho. Shorts are tricky, I like pegasus cotton drill shorts but they look a little "nappyish" on the rear. The SOF Luftwaffe tropical shorts look nice but I'm still queezy about that.

I shall probably take my Eastman mechanic sweater and maybe a Fair isle vest. Got an interesting hat, cross between an early scout/ drill hat and a boonie. It's true I'm a little confused.

Probably need to define an era. I'd like to go earlier although tweeds are out in July. Also this is not a one day ramble. I will pay for any mistakes I make. I'll probably narrow it all down to five of everything and be forced to pay for sherpas, each one carrying a different vintage rucksack full of outfits. Ah..the escape of the hills, free from worldly woes......

Any advice? Wonderful thread chaps, I feel like I'm walking amongst giants. So much knowledge and enthusiasm.

 

[Creeping Past]

Lennon's boots are good, the leather-soled WW1 one especially so.

Hobs are hard on the knees, so you'd have to weigh them up in both senses. I like them, but I don't wear them all the time. If you've not worn them before you're probably right to question whether they'd be good for you on a long walk.

For breathability and warmth (either/or or both) try a wool shirt and wool underwear. WPG/Soldier of Fortune sell a good khaki wool shirt, for example. Linen shirts are also good for walking in. There are some good repro German WW2 linen mix shirts (Afrika Korps, mainly) on Ebay, through Far East vendors, such as barrylyndon28, who has an Ebay shop called Spearhead Militaria. They're cheap, comfortable and quite hard-wearing. However, with the £/$ rate the way it is, postage makes them not such good value as they might be.

Why two sweaters? If you've a windproof anorak, one should do. Shetland wool (Fair Isle counts) is light and warm. With a wool shirt under one, I'm generally fine up till October. Of course, people feel the cold differently. But I'd have thought a Shetland slipover would see you right.

Tweeds are definitely not to be ruled out in July! You'll need a jacket to wear to pubs, restaurants, local museums, church, and so forth, when you're not walking. Why not take a tweed one along? There's always a nip in the air on the tops and often in woodland, etc., and you might be glad of an extra loose layer.

Pegasus does a very good cotton anorak, which I can recommend.

Pegasus's khaki drill shorts are also good. You could pull em up tight to avoid low arse, I suppose. Thick cotton is the way to go. Don't make the mistake of wearing thin cotton shorts as they chafe when sweaty. Someone I know cut down a pair of Schipperfabrik's WW1 German feldgrau trousers to make a great pair of wool shorts. That's an expensive way to do it these days, but made sense a couple of years back when US clothing and postage was affordable.

You may need trousers for pubs, restaurants, church, and so forth, and for when the temperature drops on the hills, as it inevitably will. Depending on my mood and the weather forecast, I wear serge, tweed or cord.

I ditch authenticity re: socks. Wool mix for me. I can wear through an all-wool pair of socks in an afternoon and I can't be bothered carrying a darning mushroom.

Wool pants. You can't beat them. Either that or 'commando'.

I'm all for a small rucksack, but that canoe pack might be a bit too small. I use a 1950s Swiss army rucksack with a light frame. It suits me fine. The old Swedish army ones are good, too. Here's an existing FL thread about these ones. Schipperfabrik's WW1 German army ruck is good value. But, again, postage costs at the moment might make it less so.

Others here may be able to offer advice on the benefits of military surplus aertex garments (shirts and trousers/shorts, for example). I don't have any of this stuff. But I bet it would be very good for summer walking.

If you're B&Bing rather than camping, you'll never be more than half a day's walk from a hot shower and dry clothes, depending on what you're carrying. The most important thing is not how much 'performance' or 'survival' gear you've got, but knowing your physical limits and remaining as comfortable as possible in the range of conditions you'll be facing.

As the one who calls himself H. Johnson has said, if vintage outdoors gear interests you, Invisible on Everest is a must-read.

 

[dit dah]

Thank you for your comprehensive reply, most illuminating.

Wool pants though, glory be. Though my paternal stock is Presbyterian I'm not sure my mollycoddled parts are ready for that level of self a'basement.

I really like the idea of having a tweed with me and I don't think any of mine will do so this is an excellent ruse for purchasing. What style would you suggest?

I'd love to have a pair of Old Town's High Rise, or Orfords, but I requested a fabric sample (twice) over three months ago and not had anything. I know you are a customer of theirs Mr Past and to be honest I would like to join you but clearly I did not pass the test.

I will take some time to look at your other suggestions but thanks again, I appreciate your help.

Not sure there's many museums on The Pennine Way but I'm sure I'll need (my church) the pub!

 

[Creeping Past]

Tweed: my favourite for hiking is a loosely woven Donegal that looks like Harris. It's light and warm but breathes nicely, if you get my drift. It can take a lot of crumpling and bounces back, meaning I can stuff it in my sack, tie it round my waist, etc., and it still looks good.

I'd recommend the Old Town Vauxhalls for walking in. I've a serge pair that are great for hiking in. The High Rise are more for lounging. You could wear the Orfords with plimsolls and a tweed jacket for the apres-hike, although there's always a risk of being the subject of oafish barracking in the provinces.

If you're concerned about the quality of OT fabric, don't be. It's top notch. The heavy cotton drill and serge were way better than I'd hoped for. The colours as reproduced on their site are pretty faithful, too. But I can understand your reluctance to proceed without a close-up look.

Your nethers will thank you for merino pants.

 

[dit dah]

I think the wool pants instill more fear than the barracking, although I may pack a 1st edition copy of Maj. Bill's Get Tough, and a Smatchet of course, for the dispensing of oafs.

Having visited the Old Town shop I have no reservations regarding the quality of the cloth, or their work, but the colours I am less confident in as the same colours appear very differently in various images on their website.

re the pants. Do you have a suggested retailer of the merino type? I do have a small collection of vintage smalls (collection of vintage small collection of, no stop it stop it) but have seldom worn them.

I'm probably being stupid but I can't find the anorak on the Pegasus site.

 

[Creeping Past]

Ibex make merino boxer shorts. Howies have sold them, but they're not in the current catalogue.

The anorak's not on the Pegasus site. Best to contact him and ask direct.

 

[Creeping Past]

Ventile, Grenfell and other outdoorsy natural fibre usage

"The neglected legacy of Lancashire cotton: industrial
clusters and the UK outdoor trade, 1960-1990" by Mary Rose and Mike Parsons.

Lifted from here on Bushcraft UK.

I'd really like a modern version of Hellewells’s waterproof 5 oz, weight reversible paletot. That and an oiled silk tent would set me up for summer camping.

 

[H.Johnson]

A good read, although written somewhat informally for an academic treatise... Also by the same authors Invisible on Everest: Innovation and the Gear Makers. Less academic but key for content. It was through her 2004 paper on Communities of Knowledge that I first encountered the work of Professor Rose, and the 1924 Everest clothing project. Mike Parson's father started Karrimor.

Perseverence Mills, of course, developed Pertex, which I think would come as close to your requirements for a microlight paletot.

The story (told by members of the Haythornethwaite family) of how their company as treated during WW2 is an interesting case of self-interest, if you see what I mean.

 

[Creeping Past]

I got Invisible on Everest for Christmas and read it in one sitting soon after. It's a fascinating account of outdoors clothing (in fact, it's the only one). My only criticism, beyond minor editorial cavils, is that I was tantalised rather than sated by the illustrations (vintage adverts and so on).

Will the Rin Tanaka of antique hill and fell kit please step forward?

Defence procurement still seems to be a murky area...

Edit: In light of your mentioning Pertex, and with oiled silk tents in mind, here's a modern lightweight camper, every bit as eccentric and scientific as the Victorian and Edwardian lightweight enthusiasts.