+1I would say that my 'new era' jackets have been, on balance, less rigid.
I have heard wildly different claims about Aero's leather. Some say it is rigid as chobham armor and others say it is quite supple and easy to break in. I don't know who to believe haha
I agree and I'm thinking that's probably a combination of the hides Horween is putting out and the selections Aero is making. For me that initial stiffness and break-in is what attracts me to the leather. I had a very early M/C jacket that was confirmed to be built in the late 80's, it had a leather tag with gold screen printed type. In 2010 it was still standing on its own and it had seen quite a bit of wear.
Now my Vanson, when fully rigged with belt and collar is just north of 10lbs, initially the most uncomfortable, ugly looking, suit of plastic you've ever seen. Like the stay puff marshmallow man spray painted black. Now, it's softer than lambskin but still incredibly heavy and squeaky.
I've owned three Horween CXL FQHH jackets and handled many more, and I've always found the hide to break in very quickly and be as soft as goat or midweight steer (if still a bit thicker than many of those) in no time. Other folks will, of course, prefer something much lighter and thinner from the off. Somebody who really likes (to take an extreme example) lamb jackets for comfort is unlikely ever to be all that fussed on a CXL horse.
Absolutely, I think every jacket purchase I've ever made has been based on, at least to some degree, a desire to improve upon my earliest bike jackets. It's funny b/c I would've been just as likely to wear my helmet without my bike than I would my leather jacket when I was younger. It was helmet, gloves, boots, a leather and my bike...and I rarely if ever separated them. Minus a short period of riding in a t-shirt, which I quickly realized was a one way ticket to becoming a plucked chicken.I wonder how many of us who favour a hide that needs some breaking in cut our teeth on bike leathers in the eighties? I've always put that down to colouring my leather preferences to a significant degree.
Makes me wish I was young and out there blazing a path through life!
Certainly past experience is the guiding light by which other hides are judged by the folks buying them. Having owned primarily riding leathers, the Italian hide Aero offers felt remarkably light, like a vintage Brooks, compared to what I am most familiar. So I think it's reasonable to assume that if those heavier hides aren't the type you've had very much experience with in the past, it's very reasonable to say the CXL or comp weight hides seem ridiculously unnecessary and uncomfortable. And in all truth they probably are, if purpose driven gear is unimportant. My personal history stems from Cal, Vanson and like brands. Certainly tools of the trade type gear. In my youth I'd never wear a leather if I wasn't on my bike. That's certainly changed! My jacket was just another piece of equipment that would be out of place without the others. That said I've owned, maybe hundreds, of other brands like Brooks, Brimaco, Bates etc, etc ad nausea. I can think of very few makers of M\C jackets that I haven't tried/ bought and sold. Most of those makers never produced leathers I find most desirable but I still very much loved the jackets. I guess for me, as I've trimmed my collection, I look for bang for the buck (only b/c I have too). It's easier for me to justify a jacket that I can use as a tool, if need be, than one I can't. So even though I don't necessarily intend to ride in my Aeros, my philosophy is, should I need to, I can, and I can expect a reasonable amount of protection in so doing. That's just where the value hits for me. I can get a little more out of it and justify spending the money (which is no small feat while paying private school tuition). I only bristle at the notion of one maker, one hide being the best of the best and labeling everything else inferior. And I get it, we've all felt that way when we get our new jacket. I'm not mad at dude and never was. His jacket and yours SF are stunning master class pieces of art. I think my greasy ass Vanson is too.My primary experience with Horween's heavy FQHH is an Aero sample jacket received from TB. It was ridiculously rigid and uncomfortable . . . felt like a suit of armor. No way no how I would ever purchase a jacket made from that leather.
I have read varying accounts of whether Horween FQHH becomes meaningfully less rigid over time. Some report that their FQHH jacket became less rigid after several years of regular wear. Several others report that, notwithstanding several years of regular wear, their FQHH jacket never become meaningfully less rigid. Still others report relatively quick break-ins.
Given the varying reports, I will not purchase Horween FQHH because, even if it became meaningfully less rigid after several years of regular wear (no guaranty), I am not willing to endure several years of an uncomfortable jacket. I am not willing to wear a jacket 100+ times before it becomes comfortable and enjoyable to wear. This is a particular problem for me given that: (1) my local climate limits the numbers of times per year that I can wear leather jackets; and (2) I have several leather jackets in my rotation, which also limits the number of times per year that I wear any particular jacket. Therefore, my strong preference is for a jacket that requires less break-in.
The notion that Shinki HH is "light weight" is preposterous. For most people, Shinki HH is ridiculously heavy. My wife and friends regularly observe how heavy my leather jackets are. Compared to anything but industrial heavy Horween FQHH, Shinki HH is a very heavy leather. It is only when compared to Horween's heavy FQHH that Shinki is labeled a mid-weight leather. Likewise, the indirect comparison to lamb is equally misplaced. Shinki is nothing like lamb.
To be clear, Shinki has not cornered the market on desirable and/or mid-weight HHs. Several Italian tanneries make wonderful mid-weight HHs, including the Victoria tannery. Horween also makes some high quality mid-weight HHs, including Rockford and Vermont.
Exactly. It is very much based on what criteria you are judging the products on.Each to his own for leather choice
As far as design and craftsmanship, Himel is tough to beat.
I have an Aero Grizzly and one made by Steve S. I like both but I also like the Himel version and have said this here even before the Himel Grizzly was discussed on FL. Design, materials and workmanship are impeccable. What I can't take is the price. For the price of a Himel Grizzly I could buy both of mine again plus another fine jacket with change to spare. A Himel at current exchange rates plus taxes, customs and shipping would cost about AU$5000 which is an insane amount and places it in the high end luxury market.
the Italian hide Aero offers felt remarkably light, like a vintage Brooks
I've owned, maybe hundreds, of other brands like Brooks, Brimaco, Bates etc, etc ad nausea. I can think of very few makers of M\C jackets that I haven't tried/ bought and sold. Most of those makers never produced leathers I find most desirable but I still very much loved the jackets.
It's easier for me to justify a jacket that I can use as a tool, if need be, than one I can't. So even though I don't necessarily intend to ride in my Aeros, my philosophy is, should I need to, I can, and I can expect a reasonable amount of protection in so doing. That's just where the value hits for me. I can get a little more out of it and justify spending the money.
I only bristle at the notion of one maker, one hide being the best of the best and labeling everything else inferior.
I guess at the end of the day there's no way in Hell anyone will convince me a Himmel bests a Vanson or Aero and there's no way in Hell I'll convince anyone it does. And even trying to do so ultimately defeats the entire purpose of this place, which is simply to enjoy these wonderful things.
My primary experience with Horween's heavy FQHH is an Aero sample jacket received from TB. It was ridiculously rigid and uncomfortable . . . felt like a suit of armor. No way no how I would ever purchase a jacket made from that leather.
I have read varying accounts of whether Horween FQHH becomes meaningfully less rigid over time. Some report that their FQHH jacket became less rigid after several years of regular wear. Several others report that, notwithstanding several years of regular wear, their FQHH jacket never become meaningfully less rigid. Still others report relatively quick break-ins.
Given the varying reports, I will not purchase Horween FQHH because, even if it became meaningfully less rigid after several years of regular wear (no guaranty), I am not willing to endure several years of an uncomfortable jacket. I am not willing to wear a jacket 100+ times before it becomes comfortable and enjoyable to wear. This is a particular problem for me given that: (1) my local climate limits the numbers of times per year that I can wear leather jackets; and (2) I have several leather jackets in my rotation, which also limits the number of times per year that I wear any particular jacket. Therefore, my strong preference is for a jacket that requires less break-in.
The notion that Shinki HH is "light weight" is preposterous. For most people, Shinki HH is ridiculously heavy. My wife and friends regularly observe how heavy my leather jackets are. Compared to anything but industrial heavy Horween FQHH, Shinki HH is a very heavy leather. It is only when compared to Horween's heavy FQHH that Shinki is labeled a mid-weight leather. Likewise, the indirect comparison to lamb is equally misplaced. Shinki is nothing like lamb.
To be clear, Shinki has not cornered the market on desirable and/or mid-weight HHs. Several Italian tanneries make wonderful mid-weight HHs, including the Victoria tannery. Horween also makes some high quality mid-weight HHs, including Rockford and Vermont.
Ain't it the truth. I've wasted more $ than I care to even think about. But I'm also a bit over the top with whimsy and that's 100% my fault. I'd also like to see some close ups. Some tight photos of the level of craftsmanship that surround Dave's work, to my knowledge, haven't been posted, but I'd certainly love to see them. The cuts look fantastic and that's very easy to see but the devil's in the details.I've observed the same thing, jj. Aero's changed a whole lot since I've been paying attention. I've been through enough CXL to know the difference but the fact remains that my last HWM was the heaviest CXL I had seen and paradoxically also the softest Aero I've owned. I'm pretty sure they can still source some heavies but if I was after it, I would make sure to specifically ask for it.
...but ultimately it doesn't matter. What matters is that this jacket is completely awesome and most importantly, it is the kind of perfection Jake was after. Threads like this are exactly what this whole jacket deal is all about and God knows you can't have too many of such success stories. I wish I've had one before wasting this much time and money on jackets. Hell, I could've bought like three Himels for the kind of money I dropped on jackets that didn't work so this one working out so great for Dude is what particularly makes me happy. Too many times have I seen jackets owners were seemingly happy with pop up in the classifieds a few weeks after and it's really sad... I know how much people were looking forward to these things only to gradually realize it's just not it. But yeah, I know this one's not gonna end up on the Bay soon and that's all that matters.
I was wondering about one thing, though. Dude, you mention the stitch marks being invisible - what exactly do you mean? Could you post up some close-ups of the seams?