Hey - wanna have a laugh...? key words "Polo" & "A2"

[Mr. 'H']

I know, I know, and he was a non-stop liar.
It's disgraceful that someone will pay for that.

But they will!

Those two jacket will be gone by the next time I go instore.

I feel like screaming internally!

 

[MrBern]

The idea is that the flag is always shown in an "advancing" position, as if the wearer's body were a flagpole and the flag flying from it. The Gunny discussed it early on in Mail Call, and author Dale Brown wrote a mini-essay/op-ed about the subject at http://www.megafortress.com/newsletter/news66.htm .

But thats a current orientation for the flag.
A `40s vintage depiction would always have the blue field on the left.

 

[Mr. 'H']

Will the real PRL please step up?

lol lol lol

 

[Diamondback]

MrBern, the standard was field on left of flag, flag only on left shoulder. They put a left-shoulder flag on the jacket's right shoulder on this farce. (And when the guy with the Sears-catalog jacket calls it a farce, that's bad... lol)

The "reverse flag" was specifically designed for the right shoulder, as is worn today and the subject of Brown's commentary linked above.

 

[Fletch]

The cachet of this jacket is obviously the ability to say, "I am not a (eeech!) collector, I have never been within 3 miles of an air show, and I don't know anyone who knows anyone who's ever served in the armed forces."

 

[Edward]

Hmmn. A few weeks ago, before i joined this place and started to post almost daily, I'd probably not have picked up the issues with this jacket (though I'd have been certain to do my homework, and I very much doubt I'd have paid out that price - especially not with the fake distressing! - so I'd not have bought one...)....

I very, very much doubt that there is any intended political comment whatever in the shoulder flag being mis-oriented - more a sign of someone who's not done their research, or doesn't really care about getting it right. The average person in the street isn't going to care about that sort of thing, much less actually notice - especially here in Europe where the US flag naturally does not inspire the sort of reverence that it does in the US. If they really wanted to make a political comment, inverting the flag would be the way to do it.

That aside.... the general look of the jacket is much more accurate to my eyes than most of what is sold as an "A2" these days. I'd be similarly disinclined to pay for something with that sort of artwork on it (I'd love a jacket with some period-style nose art some day, but as my only A2 it wouldn't be something I'd want). I have no especially strong feelings one way or the other about the squadron patch / name tag, though ISTM that if you're going to spend that sort of money why not "get it right" and have a patch pertaining to an actual squadron and a nametag with either a real airman, the option of having your own, or - hell - something fictional but associated with the A2, like Macqueen or something.

Compared to the likes of Aero, ELC and what they offer, this is drastically overpriced, particularly taking into account your comments on the relative quality of the leather. And particularly taking into account Chinese manufacture. I have no doubt whatever that a Chinese company can produce a jacket to the same standard as Aero, ELC and whoever, but even presuming that the quality was equivalent (not the case here, it seems) and the spec identical, ISTM that a Chinese made garment should be available more cheaply given that production costs will have been so much lower.

I'm sure someone will buy it, and if they're happy spending the money, enjoy the jacket and don't care about the accuracy issues folks round these parts do, well.... that's capitalism. Like you, it simply helps me justify to myself the cost of an Aero, once I have the money together.

 

[Mr. 'H']

Some very well made points Edward.



However I do NOT agree with you on this point:

I have no doubt whatever that a Chinese company can produce a jacket to the same standard as Aero, ELC and whoever,

 

[Alan Eardley]

Some very well made points Edward.



However I do NOT agree with you on this point:

I used to work in the clothing industry (including leather jackets) in England. I have been around Chinese (and Indian and Pakistani) clothing factories. I have visited both of the major UK leather jacket manufacturers and either own or have owned jackets by the major US, Japanese and NZ manufacturers.

I can tell you that some Chinese companies can produce as good a jacket as any of them, given the correct patterns and suitable materials. At the end of the day it is down to individual skill in sewing and making up and the women (mainly) in the best Chinese factories lack nothing in this regard.

When Aero started having A-2s made in India, Ken Calder told me that they had to ask the contracting factory manager to tell the seamstresses not to make up the jacket seams so neatly (they were used to making shirts) as it didn't look correct.

Alan

 

[Mr. 'H']

When Aero started having A-2s made in India, Ken Calder told me ....

:eusa_doh: Would you mind extrapolating on this point please?

 

[Edward]

Some very well made points Edward.



However I do NOT agree with you on this point:

Re Chinese quality....

To clarify, I'm not suggesting that there are at present A2s coming out of China that are as good as Aero, ELC etc. It's unlikely that there will be either, as the reason to use cheap, "foreign" labour is typically in the production of goods that are aimed at a lower price bracket, hence the materials and so on will be lower grade, QA standards slightly lower, and so on. What I meant was that there is no reason why the Chinese are not capable of producing an equivalent quality jacket, given the same base materials to start with and a similar QC standard to work to. It's nothing personal against what you wrote, I just react a bit due to perceived implications that Chinese manufacture is automatically substandard - it's a byproduct I guess of hanging out on guitar forums where the "made in China therefore crap" type comments still occur frequently. There are a lot of folks out there who actually believe that a British or American garment will be automatically superior due to geographical point of manufacture alone, whereas the reality is considerably more complex. If a British worker would work for what the Chinese can be paid or less, we'd see production of those items move to Britain in all likelihood.

 

[Alan Eardley]

:eusa_doh: Would you mind extrapolating on this point please?

Exactly as I said. When Aero ordered a batch of A-2 jackets to be made by a subcontractor in India, they sent their machining supervisor out there, together with the trimmings (I believe the leather was locally sourced). After a week or so training, the Indian machinists were producing very good work, but they were used to very small seams (like a shirt) that Aero felt didn't look right on a flight jacket.

The regular line of (Galashiels made) Aero jackets are probably a little better than the Indian ones, but they are considerably more expensive.

May I ask, have you ever had a suit custom made in China?

Alan

 

[BellyTank]

H

:eusa_doh: Would you mind extrapolating on this point please?

Aero had a line called "Aero Flight...", rather than Aero Leather Clothing- they were goatskin A-2s made in India.

Don't worry- yours is made in Scotland.


I will go further with Alan's point about China(India, etc..)
These countries have many very highly skilled craftsmen and labourers and a work ethic that the West could learn a lot from- but the reputation of crap comes from the fact that Western companies use/exploit China to make cheap crap stuff- in order to exploit the West by way of high profit margin- the Chinese didn't design it, make the spec for it, decide which materials to use and which corners to cut to keep the costs down and margin up....
I have long worked in the clothing branch and been in factories in China and India too- they know their beans.

Some of the skills they have, have long since been lost in the West.

There are Chines companies who DO make quality, premium products but you may never see them.

EDIT oops, a little late..

B
T

 

[Fletch]

Exactly as I said. When Aero ordered a batch of A-2 jackets to be made by a subcontractor in India, they sent their machining supervisor out there, together with the trimmings (I believe the leather was locally sourced). After a week or so training, the Indian machinists were producing very good work, but they were used to very small seams (like a shirt) that Aero felt didn't look right on a flight jacket.

That's interesting...was there no tradition, or no demand, to use their native goatskin for jackets?

I have the Indian goat Aero and enjoy it greatly. In fact I feel the leather is actually a little too nice for a period A-2. Wearing it is a little like flying a silver-plated P-51.

That said, the build quality is very high. I should think the only drawback is lower collectible value.

Isn't the language barrier lower in India than in China? Ie, don't more people speak English there (about all the business community, anyway)? That might be a draw to Western firms with high detail specs that can't be communicated in numbers (such as specialty apparel).

 

[Edward]

I work in a University, I'm on the academic staff but i alos have been involved in the applications process. We see a lot of applications from both countries (China has been a big one since joining the WTO). If we can deal in broad stereotypes, students from both countries tend to be very hard workers, highly motivated, keen to learn etc. Those from India do tend by and large to have better English - a lot of them were educated in English and so are pretty much bilingual. Chinese students are educated in Chinese (Mandarin or Cantonese). They do learn English, but obviously don't tend to be just so up to speed with it. From what I understand this is pretty typical of those countries in general.

The reason so many teleservices have been outsourced to India is because there is such a large workforce who speak excellent English and are cheap to hire - the wages for working in teleservices there are peanuts in Western terms, but an excellent wage out there, and many of those competing for those jobs the last I heard were very well qualified graduates. It is - the relatively high wage factor, i guess - a desirable job out there whereas over here it's not something a lot of folks want to do, and something many look down on.

FWIW, I expect that things will change markedly in China in the next decade. Since they won the right to stage the Olympic Games in 2008, the PRC government has gone into ovderdrive to encourage more people to learn English. One of the state-run television channels, intended for the domestic market native Chinese speakers, broadcasts entirely English-language content, and in Beijing itself, the metro, street signs, and so on are all in Chinese and English. This is a recent development - four or five years ago when our people first started going out there, apparently there was no such thing as a sign in English - that was really turned around by May 06 when I was there. It's an amazing place.

 

[Mr. 'H']

Aero had a line called "Aero Flight...", rather than Aero Leather Clothing- they were goatskin A-2s made in India.

Don't worry- yours is made in Scotland.


I will go further with Alan's point about China(India, etc..)
These countries have many very highly skilled craftsmen and labourers and a work ethic that the West could learn a lot from- but the reputation of crap comes from the fact that Western companies use/exploit China to make cheap crap stuff- in order to exploit the West by way of high profit margin- the Chinese didn't design it, make the spec for it, decide which materials to use and which corners to cut to keep the costs down and margin up....
I have long worked in the clothing branch and been in factories in China and India too- they know their beans.

Some of the skills they have, have long since been lost in the West.

There are Chines companies who DO make quality, premium products but you may never see them.

EDIT oops, a little late..

B
T

Thank you and Alan for that explaination!

Re Chinese quality....

To clarify, I'm not suggesting that there are at present A2s coming out of China that are as good as Aero, ELC etc. It's unlikely that there will be either, as the reason to use cheap, "foreign" labour is typically in the production of goods that are aimed at a lower price bracket, hence the materials and so on will be lower grade, QA standards slightly lower, and so on. What I meant was that there is no reason why the Chinese are not capable of producing an equivalent quality jacket, given the same base materials to start with and a similar QC standard to work to. It's nothing personal against what you wrote, I just react a bit due to perceived implications that Chinese manufacture is automatically substandard - it's a byproduct I guess of hanging out on guitar forums where the "made in China therefore crap" type comments still occur frequently. There are a lot of folks out there who actually believe that a British or American garment will be automatically superior due to geographical point of manufacture alone, whereas the reality is considerably more complex. If a British worker would work for what the Chinese can be paid or less, we'd see production of those items move to Britain in all likelihood.

I believe that it takes a manufacturer like Aero or Eastman many years to fine tune their offering and get the details spot on. I am not doubting that the seamstresses in China are anything but as technically proficiant as western ones at all. But they don't have the direction that companies like Aero can give them - even down to the flag issue above - it probably would have been placed on the other sleeve by an American company.

 

[Mr. 'H']

May I ask, have you ever had a suit custom made in China?

Alan

Three suits made in Hong Kong. I had to be very very specific about what I wanted and some details were still overlooked. However the overall construction quality was top-notch.

My brother in law recently returned from living in Beijing whilst at University there. He had a couple of suits made which I shall inspect over the weekend.

I believe it's been touched on here, that you have to be really specific (often because of cultural differnces the Golden Era details are overlooked) but the technical make-up of the suit can be great.

 

[Mr. 'H']

Alan/Edward,

My gripe here is that PRL are charging close to $1,500 for this and yet it is NOT a quality a2.

My gripe is the rip-off.

Not that it was made in China.

 

[BellyTank]

Same old-

-"premium brands", big money... quality not necessarily an issue.

I've spent time in India, my Wife is a Danish born Indian- her extended family live outside of Delhi, in Gurgaon, where the high-rises of call centres are. It's true, they are all graduates but it's apparently, also a trendy job to have although it's given birth to a kind of "call centre neurosis" working upside-down hours on a long shift to accomodate western time.

It's fair to generalise that Indian people are easier to communicate with in English- but watch out- both Indian and Chinese people are SO obliging, always wanting to say YES- ask a stranger on the road for directions in India and you'll get them alright but who knows where you end up.

Of course India has a long and widespread English history, China's English history has not had the same impact on. A lot of Indians consider themselves British. or have a right to be- if they want to.

B
T

 

[Paden]

I do not like things from China and India for many reasons.
It starts the way the people have worke, the political system and it ends with
the way they copy trademarked goods from other companies.

I am sure, they can make good leather jackets, but you do not buy only a jacket, you buy the also the spirit of the company and the people.
For me, it is not only a jacket, for the chines company it a way to make money.

 

[MrBern]

MrBern, the standard was field on left of flag, flag only on left shoulder. They put a left-shoulder flag on the jacket's right shoulder on this farce. (And when the guy with the Sears-catalog jacket calls it a farce, that's bad... lol)

The "reverse flag" was specifically designed for the right shoulder, as is worn today and the subject of Brown's commentary linked above.

Was it the standard?
I've seen lots of WWII airborne jkts w/ the flag on the right shoulder...blue field on the left.

Not to say that this A-2 doesnt suck.