Help finding quality Japanese mfg outside of the usual suspects

[greenc]

Hi everyone,

Hope you all enjoyed a terrific weekend.

I love rummaging around Buyee.jp to see what's there and in so doing I usually find Japanese jacket makers outside of the usual suspects - RMC, Rainbow Country, Freewheelers, Flat Head, etc - that I know nothing about, but I'm guessing they too make quality pieces.

Do any of you have experience with some of these manufacturers?

I researched a bit on Jelado, and I like what they create, but what about Sus-Sous, or Atlast, or Talonte? I'm vaguely familiar with Tenjin Works but I'm interested in expanding my knowledge of quality creators in Japan and would appreciate any thoughts ya'll can provide.

Thanks much, looking forward to your responses.

Chris

 

[jchance]

The guys over at the Double Helix’s main thread would agree that DH is still pretty underrated and offers significant value for the price they charge. Otherwise, I’d say search around the forum for JP brands.

Jelado doesn’t make their own stuff, they often do collaboration with Rainbow Country.

Fine Creek is highly overrated.

Pherrow’s has been doing some interesting 1930s patterns.

If I go custom (in JP), I’d get a Peter’s Tailored Made repro leather jacket. They are doing some exciting stuff.

 

[greenc]

Thank you @jchance, I really appreciate the response - I've seen Double Helix's pieces and think they look pretty good.

Correct me if I'm wrong but at some point the leather quality and construction begins to level out among brands and what we're talking about are patterns and drapes.

In all but the most obvious cases I have a hard time assessing hide quality from photos - I can see grain and richness of color but without touching the jacket I can't always tell how good the hide is.

And that actually brings me to my next point - how do forum members determine the quality of a hide or jacket?

Is there a noticeable difference between RMC and Jelado, for example? If we put a double rider from each side by side and obscured the tags are there telltale signs that distinguish one from another?

Chris

 

[jchance]

My thought process is pretty simple. I ask myself two questions:

(1) does the leather jacket look good (to whom?) on me?

(2) does it feel good on me?

For (1)’s implied question of “to whom,” there are specialists (Loungers) and generalists (family, friends, and the general public). I’m not trying to impress any Loungers in real life, so whether it looks good to them has no relevance to me realistically. As long as the leather jacket doesn’t look cheap like vinyl or faux leather, it looks good to everyone else, assuming it fits and not an eyesore (eg bright color).

(2) is pretty easy if it’s not two sizes too tight (that my body sores or shoulders hurt from wearing) and the leather isn’t overly heavy.

———

I compare leather jackets to food. Say, you blindfold me and ask me to try two types of soy sauce. If I can’t tell the difference between the two, you bet I’m not overpaying for the more expensive, brand-name one with whatever marketing scheme you’re selling. Same goes for leather jacket. If I can’t tell the difference between RMC and RC (Jelado), I’d get whatever is cheaper. Why would I pay more if I receive the same value? That’s just overpaying.

I don’t care if they are trying to sell me high/low stitch count, skived/no skived, French seams, heavy/med/lightweight hide, horse/cow/deer/goat, chrome/vegged tanned, made in USA/JP/Italy/China, etc. That’s simply marketing. As long as it doesn’t fall apart too quickly like a fast-fashion clothing item, it’s just a piece of dead animal skin made into a jacket in the end.

 

[ton312]

There is no better teacher than experience. In this hobby it is the ONLY way to be able to distinguish quality tiers, fit preference, etc.

You can ask a million questions and never get the “right” answer, especially here.

My advice would be to open your wallet, prepare to win and lose, and don’t limit yourself to a tiny island. Buy some jackets. Sell some jackets. Repeat as needed.

 

[greenc]

Thank you everyone who responded, I appreciate the thoughts - and I feel rather foolish, I didn't know that Y2 and the "Eights" made jackets for other brands, I thought each brand made their own.

I have actually learned an interesting piece of information, thank you @Pkshfo74036.

@ton312 you're right - the only way to really get a feel for things is to start mucking about handling leather jackets at retailers and resellers, trying them on, buying and selling, and figuring out what fits the right way.

And that brings me to vintage - I think with so many things we imagine vintage to be better quality because it was made before a time where there was fast fashion. It was made with pride and built to last. Just the same, I've seen some pretty ratty vintage pieces.

That said, I do wonder if they did things better back then (1940s, '50, '60s, and '70s). I'd love to know if the tanning process was different, if the way they stitched things was different, etc.

As an aside, the city has spent the last three months replacing the water and sewer lines directly in front of my house, which has been a complete mess but rather interesting to watch. I was talking to the foreman the other day and he told me that a streetcar used to run up my street in the 1920s and that when they decommissioned it the just covered the tracks and left it.

When his crew dug down they found the tracks but the wooden 10" x 10" beams that secured the tracks in place were so heavy that they had to remove them with a backhoe, two men couldn't lift a side and pull them out. He said it was because it was old growth lumber and massively dense, unlike the beams we have today.

 

[jchance]

And that brings me to vintage - I think with so many things we imagine vintage to be better quality because it was made before a time where there was fast fashion. It was made with pride and built to last. Just the same, I've seen some pretty ratty vintage pieces.

That said, I do wonder if they did things better back then (1940s, '50, '60s, and '70s). I'd love to know if the tanning process was different, if the way they stitched things was different, etc.

I like the rugged look of leather jacket, not the brand-new luxury look of high-end leather jackets like Tom Ford’s. So I seek out vintage, heavily worn leather jackets to wear. 1930s-50s leather jackets were built differently than 1960s-onwards.

Most noticeable difference is hardware, there were of course bad zippers but the good ones are so smooth and easy to use. Crown and Talons are amazing; 1950s Conmar not so much.

The hides were much more interesting. I’ve been wearing a mid-1930s leather jacket that has gone through one restitching of the entire jacket. The original lining has entirely worn off, so I wear it unlined. The hide shows all of its grains through its 90 years of life, not smooth like a brand new mall jacket. I marvel at it every time I put it on, how its age is essentially 3 times mine. I don’t want to wait until I’m 60-70 years old to wear a rugged leather jacket that I’ve owned for 30 years, I want to wear it now.

Before 1950 when cotton poly thread was commercialized, only cotton threads were used in leather jackets and the cotton threads can rot due to conditioner usage.

 

[jchance]

Can I see a photo of this leather jacket you mention, specifcally the leather?

 

[greenc]

@jchance that jacket you posted is fantastic, I hope you wear it all the time! Have you had any issues with thread rot along any of the seams?

 

[jchance]

@jchance that jacket you posted is fantastic, I hope you wear it all the time! Have you had any issues with thread rot along any of the seams?

Thanks, I like it so much I wear it every day, to the exclusion of everything else I own. I’ve pulled out some rotted threads before, but given that it’s been restitched once, it’s not that big of a concern. Also, because it’s unlined, I’ve spent multiple days stitching up loose threads in various areas (without the interference of the lining) so the threads are good and the jacket isn’t fragile like other vintage jackets of this age.

Fragile thread and cracked leather (in addition to bad zippers) are the two biggest concerns in wearing vintage leather jackets. You don’t want to tear it apart every time you wear it and move around in it.

A pic is worth a thousand words. I refer you to Nik’s collection of 1930s leather jackets (linked below) for what vintage leather jackets can offer you. His is like museum quality, especially the first 2 leather jackets listed. My jacket is not as good, but at least it’s mine.

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/niks-vintage-1930s-leather-jacket-sale-size-36-38.106824/

Nik’s jackets offer an example of how wonderfully leather ages over time. Below is another example of an early 1940s A-2 worn by President Eisenhower. I don’t think that aging process can be replicated by artificial aging.

 

[floater]

Other lesser known brands you could look at are high notch, four speed, trophy clothing and electric leather studio who also makes some jackets for jelado btw.

 

[greenc]

Thanks, I like it so much I wear it every day, to the exclusion of everything else I own. I’ve pulled out some rotted threads before, but given that it’s been restitched once, it’s not that big of a concern. Also, because it’s unlined, I’ve spent multiple days stitching up loose threads in various areas (without the interference of the lining) so the threads are good and the jacket isn’t fragile like other vintage jackets of this age.

Fragile thread and cracked leather are the two biggest concerns in wearing vintage leather jackets. You don’t want to tear it apart every time you wear it and move around in it.

A pic is worth a thousand words. I refer you to Nik’s collection of 1930s leather jackets (linked below) for what vintage leather jackets can offer you. His is like museum quality, especially the first 2 leather jackets listed. My jacket is not as good, but at least it’s mine.

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/niks-vintage-1930s-leather-jacket-sale-size-36-38.106824/

Nik’s jackets offer an example of how wonderfully leather ages over time. Below is another example of an early 1940s A-2 worn by President Eisenhower. I don’t think that aging process can be replicated by artificial aging.


View attachment 722779 View attachment 722780

@jchance I've seen Nik's thread before and his jackets were incredible - if I'm not mistaken he sold most of them, hope the new owners are enjoying them. The aging on his were incredible and exactly the look that I find most attractive.

The Eisenhower jacket is also quite incredible and the creases and grain look hard-won, which is exactly the way I think it should be - earning it through wear and by not babying it is fantastic.

@floater, I'm semi-familiar with Four Speed but I'll definitely check out Electric, High Notch, and Trophy - thank you for the recommendations!

Chris

 

[jchance]

… the creases and grain look hard-won, which is exactly the way I think it should be - earning it through wear and by not babying it is fantastic.

The hard-earned creases, grains, fades, color depth, oxidized green brass snaps/rivets, and built-to-last zippers pretty much sum up why and how I like vintage well-worn leather jackets. Now I just need to find a brown one like Nik’s or Eisenhower’s and my life would be complete.

 

[Bfd70]

I like the rugged look of leather jacket, not the brand-new luxury look of high-end leather jackets like Tom Ford’s. So I seek out vintage, heavily worn leather jackets to wear. 1930s-50s leather jackets were built differently than 1960s-onwards.

Most noticeable difference is hardware, there were of course bad zippers but the good ones are so smooth and easy to use. Crown and Talons are amazing; 1950s Conmar not so much.

The hides were much more interesting. I’ve been wearing a mid-1930s leather jacket that has gone through one restitching of the entire jacket. The original lining has entirely worn off, so I wear it unlined. The hide shows all of its grains through its 90 years of life, not smooth like a brand new mall jacket. I marvel at it every time I put it on, how its age is essentially 3 times mine. I don’t want to wait until I’m 60-70 years old to wear a rugged leather jacket that I’ve owned for 30 years, I want to wear it now.

Before 1950 when cotton poly thread was commercialized, only cotton threads were used in leather jackets and the cotton threads can rot due to conditioner usage.

I mean you could turn a leather jacket rugged pretty quickly if it’s the only one in the stable and you where the hell out of it in ******** adventures.

 

[greenc]

Thank you @Pkshfo74036 I appreciate the response - I too seem to be drawn to makers over designers. That said, in my opinion Rainbow Country and Fine Creek have some gorgeous pieces.

Does anyone know if Bates made their own leather jackets in the 1960s and '70s or were they contracted out?

Chris

After further digging, It sounds like maybe Finecreek infact does contract their jackets out to be built by a variety of different factories.

The more I get into this hobbie the more I appreciate brands like Four Speed, Tenjin, Thedi, Himel, Lost Worlds. So many of the Japanese brands seem to actually just be design studios, and most of the jackets are made in a few factories.

And the bigger inhouse shops also seem great, Vanson, Schott, RMC, Aero.

I feel that knowing a brand does not make their own jackets, is a major turn off, for example, Freewheelers.... to name the one super over hyped brand.

 

[Biff42]

Thank you @Pkshfo74036 I appreciate the response - I too seem to be drawn to makers over designers. That said, in my opinion Rainbow Country and Fine Creek have some gorgeous pieces.

Does anyone know if Bates made their own leather jackets in the 1960s and '70s or were they contracted out?

Chris

Bates made their own and still do. In the eighties or early nineties I think they went thru a bankruptcy before the current owners bought it.

I've owned several Bates and my fave jacket is one likely made in the 80's.

 

[AlbertDuccette]

Does anyone know anything about the label "Seven Arrows"? I see it every once in a while on Japanese listings. The "unusual" English is throwing me off a bit.

 

[AlbertDuccette]

I wouldn’t worry about the unusual or slightly off translation, I’ve seen it on other good japanese brands as well.

I have a one that says “crafted with pride and self-confidence” and “resists most of the several conditions”.

In general, is there a reason why English is used then? Is it a "reproduction"?