Help ! Fake Schott 689 horsehide ?!

[dormicica]

Hi all, I need your help in solving a weird and rather unnerving story. I bought a Schott 689 Horsehide jacket from LegendaryUSA which turned out to be too big. I sold it on eBay, absolutely unworn and intact, with all the paper tags on. The German guy who bought it was very happy with the jacket, I received several mails from him praising the quality and the look. Then, almost 30 days from purchase he wrote me a mail starting like 'How could you dare selling me a fake Schott jacket?! This is not even leather!' He described that stitchings came loose here and there, then the surface started ripping off at places. Jacket seems to be not even of leather, not to mention horsehide.
Without providing any proof the guy placed a claim at PayPal, and PayPal instantly - without any prior notice - took hold of the sale price on my account until case is cleared. Since then I maild PayPal 5 times, without getting ANY reply.
For one thing, I thought I would share this sad story with you because it may be of useful conclusions for us all. Besides, I would really need your advice as to how I should proceed.

 

[Edward]

I've been ripped off on eBay myself, and there are a few things I'd do differently again.

1] Never, ever rely on eBay's customer protection..... really, they don't want to know you if your seller has kept you stringing along long enough to go outside the sixty day time limit. They suggested I complain to the police over the equivalent of about USD100 when I got ripped off, thus washing their hands of it. With a seller in the US, I know rightly the police here would laugh in my face..... Nevertheless, you should file a dispute with eBay as soon as possible.... just gives yourself that little extra level of any possible protection that there might be. Better than nothing, and gives you a chance to put your side of the story.

2] How is your Paypal account funded? If it's from a credit card you may be able to get the credit company to investigate and claw your money back.

3] Did you take photos of the jacket? Got any receipts from original point of sale? Anything else that might help to authenticate it? Has he sent you any photos or other evidence of it being fake?

I've heard of cons via ebay / paypal before now where people, once in possession of the goods, attempt to get their money back as well - it could be you're experiencing one of these.

 

[dormicica]

I still have the receipt from LegendaryUSA confirming I had purchased a Schott 689 HH jacket from their dealership. All Schott paper tags were attached on the jacket, all inside Schott tags were there. From the brass zipper to the inside tags and liner jacket looked exactly the same as on Schott's webpage.
Besides, I wrote to Schott, they acknowledged Legendary as their dealer.
They guy seemed to be very nice, we had been in a friendly correspondence after he purchased the jacket.
When he made his complaint he sent me a photo on the jacket's surface coming off, but it was very low resolution, I could not make anythong out of it.
Now, the only thing I noticed when I first saw the jacket was that the leather was very EVEN both in terms of surface pattern and of shine - as if it had been lacquered, sort of, and surprisingly light - I thought it would weigh tons.
As I have never seen horsehide before, I still can't tell the difference or what attributes horsehide must show.
I wonder what ways there are to prove leather is horsehide.

 

[The Wingnut]

It's very difficult(if not impossible) to tell the difference between HH and cowhide once both are broken in, although the dispute at this point is that it's any form of leather at all.

It's possible you didn't get front quarter HH, but a HH from a different area of the horse that's a lighter / thinner weight.

The buyer's actions raise suspicion. Look at their feedback and find out if they've disputed many items / have lots of negatives. This may be a scam they're running, buying items similar to what they've got already(or getting a similar 'lesser' item after the fact) and after the feedback is sent both directions, going into dispute. It seems odd that a buyer would immediately place a dispute and get money back before attempting to talk things over with the seller.

Get clear, large photos of the jacket and determine that it's the jacket you sold to them, THEN proceed.

 

[Working_Man]

I have a Schott cycle jacket of late eighties vintage in cowhide and although a quality jacket the leather on most of the perfectos that I have seen and including mine is a bit thinner and lighter than some other brands. I have a Vanson FQHH that is very heavy and stiff. I'm not sure how to go about resolving your problem as it seems like a "he said she said" type of problem.
Working Man

 

[Havana]

This guy is just trying to get a free jacket. He's hoping to get his money back and keep the jacket that you sold him. He's probably thinking that being in different countries will facilitate this. The burden of proof is on him. He will have to show that the jacket you sold him is fake. He may try to substitute a stand in jacket and claim that you sold that one to him. Keep all your receipts and any correspondence that you had with Legendary and Schott. This will be an ordeal but I think you'll win in the end.

 

[Flitcraft]

For What Its Worth Opinion:

I've never had a bad jacket from Schott, so I think that part of the guy's story is hooey. I think he's just trying to get a free jacket.

Additionally, I'm amazed that Ebay debited your PayPal account. Usually, they bend over backwards to protect the seller, not the buyer.

I know you want resolution now, and I can't blame you, but try contacting PayPal first- I'd want to get my money back before I went any further. If your PayPal Account is funded from your bank account, contact your bank and get them involved. Ebay hates conflict, so the more trouble you can stir up for them, the more likely you are to prevail.

Try to hold onto your temper through all this, and above all, Good Luck!

 

[griffer]

There is some latin phrase that seems to apply to this situation....

Sorry to hear this, sounds like you will have some rough times ahead getting it resolved.

Don't give up. This thief with your jacket will probably just try to outlast you.

Offer to take back the EXACT same jacket, pay the shipping, see if he bites.

If he is trying to get a free jacket, he probably will resist the return.

CC: eBay on ALL communication.

My $.02*


*worth a lot less these days in Europe.

 

[dormicica]

Hi to all of you, thanks for the empathy. The most upsetting thing is I cannot get ANY reply from Paypal. They do not reply, they haven't even tried to contact me since the claim had been placed. The only thing I can detect on my account page is that they contacted the buyer on the phone on Nov.2. (almost a week ago). No signs of procession since.
I cannot try to withdraw the money via my credit card bank company because it was taken directly from my PayPal account. So, first conclusion: NEVER ever leave any money on your account after selling something and getting payed through PayPal.

 

[SamMarlowPI]

its a pain in the butt to try and resolve stuff with ebay and paypal..i bought a video froma seller and then a couple days later i looked on my ebay and saw the seller had his account closed down...i filled a dispute with paypal that will go to claim anyday now...just have to wait it out...

 

[renor27]

problems with e-bay/paypal

In August I bought a mission style file cabinet on E-bay when it arrived it was not as described.
I tried dealing with the seller who strung me along for the 45 days he agreed to a full refund promised me that the funs were going to be sent to my pay pal account. After 45 days the seller stopped answering my e-mails 45 days is the cut off for Pay Pal help in settling problems.
All that pay pal has offered in terms of help is the suggesting to go to the FBI internet fraud division and file a complant which I have done.
Only thing else I can see doing is a small claims court case. The seller is in the mid west (if I knew some one in that part of the country would love to have them go talk to the seller ) I don't see him coming to Reno Nv to defend him self would win the case on default. Once that happens it may take years but in the end I hope to be able to get some of my money back.

 

[Flitcraft]

Doh!

NEVER ever leave any money on your account after selling something and getting payed through PayPal.

Oh, Man! Sorry, Dude, I thought you knew this was SOP. If you have any money in your PayPal account, they have access to it. Now I at least understand that part of the problem.
What I do is, after a buyers payment has sucessfully cleared, I transfer it to my bank account, that way, PayPal cannot access it. Then I mail the item to the buyer. May seem picky, but its kept me from losing money.

I know a lot of people treat PayPal like a bank account, but its really not.

 

[john z]

1) Of course in this day & age of modern forensics it's possible to tell from what what animal (if genuine natural hide) the leather your jacket is made from. Obvisously practicality & cost will probably exclude this option.

2) Once broken in Horshide is always distinguishable from Steerhide as it reaches a point at which it stops ageing long after Steerhide continues. To put that in perspective a 50 yr old HH jacket will look 20 yrs younger than it equivalent SH.

3) Any hide can be cut to many desirable thickness's (the source permitting) for the required end use. Thicker for protection, thinner for a dressier/fashionable look so the weight of your jacket cannot be a indicator as to what hide it is. I have several HH jackets & each has it's own weight/stiffness.

4) Insist on HD pics of the problems the Buyer has with the jacket & satisfy yourself they are of the jacket you sold. If your not happy challenge him.

5) Contact a Soliciter (Attorney in the US(?)) with evidence that the buyer was satisfied with his purchase until 30 days of ownership & have him/her contact PayPal.

6) Agree with the Buyer that the jacket should be returned for appraisal by Legendary or Schott as to whether it's genuine & HH & that you will both abide by the outcome. Genuine: He contacts PayPal to authorise release of your funds & the jacket is returned to him at his cost. Fake: You keep the jacket & refund his original bid & shipping cost. I would sound this out with a solicitor & get the cooperation of Legendary/Schott beforehand.

 

[dormicica]

Again, thanks for your useful thoughts!

Just to add to the story, later I purchased another of the 689 HH jacket from Legendary, one size smaller (40). It turned out to be too tight at the shoulders... but I had a chance the compare the two jackets (the other one was the one in question). They really differed in terms of shine and leather pattern, the ominous size 42 was much more uniform in every aspect, but paper tags, inside Schott patches, zippers and all small details were the same. So, unless Legendary decided to produce fake Schott jackets in mass quantity, I cannot imagine how the first one could be a fake.

As for the case, no answer from PayPal since (6th mail sent to them), no sign buyer wants to contact me or to find a solution, no proof I am noted about on his claim - money still on hold on my account. Nice little fairy tale, is it not?

Oh yes, if you want to withdraw your money from your PayPal account, they inevitably transfer it to your bank account in your national currency, you have no choice. Huge loss on conversion, that is why I did not want to do it. Wrong decision, now I know.

Take care...

 

[jacketquest]

Sorry to hear about your problem with ppal.

You should make every attempt to contact paypal. With any complaint, including SNAD (significantly not as described), the seller is given the opportunity to respond. If you do not, they will automatically side with the buyer after some period of time. Did you respond thru email? If so, it's possible these replies are not going to the right place. You should log in to the ppal site directly and respond thru the dispute center. That should ensure that your replies are received. I had a case once where I responded thru email but they claimed they never got it. After the time limit on responding had passed, they closed the dispute and found me at fault. Fortunately I was able to get a hold of someone over the phone and they reopened the dispute and allowed me to give my side. I ultimately won that one.

Good luck.

 

[dormicica]

Thanks again for the pieces of advice. I contacted PayPal directly 6 times, through Customer service and Resolution Center, without receiving any reply. Then I contacted eBay Customer Service, they swiftly replied and advised me to contact PayPal. Circle closed...

Quite unexpectedly I received a mail from the buyer yesterday. He let me know he had withdrawn the claim. He said he was tired of the whole case, gave the jacket to a tailor to fix, also he felt he would be unable to prove his point, although he had never seen such a poor quality and badly dyed jacket. He said he had a 13 year old Perfecto still in perfect shape, but this jacket is just crap.

I offered him splitting the shipping fee if he sends the jacket either to Legendary or to Schott for a closer examination.

I also wrote to Schott`s customer service asking them what the procedure is in such cases. Believe it or not, Jason Schott himself replied. He was shocked at the story, did not understand how a tailor could not tell horsehide from faux leather, and described the way to find the batch number tag in one pocket of the jacket that - in case it is there - would identify the jacket as genuine. And there it was, the buyer found it!

That is the end so far. Now, you tell me what the explanation is.

 

[Jovan]

You double posted. Might wanna delete one.

Either the guy is just covering his rear because he didn't get instant gratification from his lying, or he really is telling the truth. At least that BS is over on your part. It shows good character that you contacted Schott and offered to pay part of the shipping like you did. Maybe he'll think twice in the future if he's a scammer.

 

[nyx]

You double posted. Might wanna delete one.

Either the guy is just covering his rear because he didn't get instant gratification from his lying, or he really is telling the truth. At least that BS is over on your part. It shows good character that you contacted Schott and offered to pay part of the shipping like you did. Maybe he'll think twice in the future if he's a scammer.

I don't think he was a scammer, because he wouldn't have admitted he found the tag in the pocket. But I agree that you behaved as you should have and contacting Schott was great because it gave you your evidence! I'm glad things have worked out for you.:eusa_clap

 

[MrMojo]

The so-called thief

If anyone interested in the end of the story, just read on.
Im the german guy who bought the jacket.
Sure I was at first happy with it, even when discovering that the stitching of the inner pocket was not there. Reaching inside the pocket meant reaching inside the jackets lining. Bi-swing right had a small hole and the backrims were sewn at different lenght.
I let it repair from a tailor and still was happy. Costs about 50 Dollars.
Despiting that the tailor told me its not horsehide and showed me horsehideleather, that looked different.
I liked the jacket.
The point where I were not happy anymore, was when the leather in the back started to peel off. Right down to the lining.
At least I sent it to a leatherfactory near Munich/Bavaria. The guys there told me its not like common horsehide and it has a strange coloring.
But they can give me only 100% information about it, when making a chemicaltest, which can destroy the leather.
I dont want anybodys money or a free jacket. I just want the jacket like described and free from any flaws. Thats why I made a claim at paypal, when I noticed the leather coming off. The claim had to be made until times runnin up for buyersprotection.
Notice, I didnt argue about all the other defects before.
Dont call someone a thief, before knowing better. Every story has two sides.
I have several Schottjackets, some up to 13 years old and never recieved one with a defect. The opposite, they get better when aging. Got Perfectos, Peacoats, Racers etc. I know Schottjackets.
A conversation with Gail at Schott NYC showed also that the guy who sold me the jacket wore it on several occasions before selling it(on a movieset or something similar).
Please note, sold as brandnew.
I have no chance getting the problem solved and now its hanging in the closet for 255 english pounds & postage & repair.
I nearly forgot, I have a 100% positive feedback on eBay of over 550 valuations.
Now I hope you got an other view of this story.
I could write a lot more of the whole story, but that would be too long here.
This post should not be negative or critical against the seller, its just the truth like it happened.
I dont want to stay here as member, I just didnt liked how some guys were talking about me. Thats why I wrote this post.

Cheers

 

[kampkatz]

MrMojo,
As your story shows, there are two sides to every story. Thanks for sharing. Good luck with future transactions.