Have women... in the West at least... "Flipped the Script?"

[Big J]

i saw a documentary on this phenomena not long ago; lots of young Japanese men addicted to digital games, pornography and 'virtual' girlfriends who are scared of the idea of actually forming a relationship with a real woman.
while it's very troubling (and easy to mock) we need to look at the reasons behind it; many of these same young men feel that they can't provide a decent standard of living for a family due to the job/economic situation, and can't make more money than their parents did, so they already see themselves as having failed.

In my experience, most of these losers have an unjustified sense of entitlement- 'I went to university, why don't I earn a six figure salary? Where's my respect!', or even just 'my mum stayed at home and waited on my father hand and foot, that's what a woman should do. A women's place is in the kitchen!'

I'm not making this up.

 

[LizzieMaine]

if girls have several 'pointless' relationships in a row then i would question their ability to choose decent partners. i don't buy the idea that these poor ladies are only able to realise what a jerk their boyfriend is once they've moved in with him.

secondly, the choice doesn't have to be between rubbish boyfriends or living alone. the other option is finding a decent boyfriend.

Unfortunately for a lot of girls today, making a pleasant life for themselves on their own isn't even considered an option -- the modern culture tells them they have to be "with" someone for them to have any chance at all at being happy. In that sense we've honestly come no further than the days when girls were married off at sixteen like they were commodities, not people.

And the "living together," again, is very much a part of the modern culture -- the sequence goes "meet someone, sleep with them, move in together, fight, break up a month later, move out." It's completely screwed up from what it should be -- meet someone, *GET TO KNOW THEM,* and onward from there.

Modern culture seems to have completely stripped out the most important part of forming a healthy relationship in order to reduce the process to its crudest physical components. The ideal seems to be a physical relationship with no emotional component or emotional bonding at all -- which is, in the end, deeply unhealthy both for the people involved and for society in general. If you can't form an honest emotional bond with the person you're sleeping with, what hope is there for you to form an honest bond with the society you live in?

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Yes, that kind of thinking is problematic if it is too desperate. I wouldn't judge every failed and short lived attempt of a relationship though. Sometimes you start with honest intentions but it just doesn't work out. Happenend to me too. Rose tinted glasses can do this. It's kind of a process to realise what you really want and it's not always damaging or immature.
Different people have different needs. I wouldn't condemn any form of relationship as long it works for both partners and isn't abusive.

 

[HudsonHawk]

i saw a documentary on this phenomena not long ago; lots of young Japanese men addicted to digital games, pornography and 'virtual' girlfriends who are scared of the idea of actually forming a relationship with a real woman.
while it's very troubling (and easy to mock) we need to look at the reasons behind it; many of these same young men feel that they can't provide a decent standard of living for a family due to the job/economic situation, and can't make more money than their parents did, so they already see themselves as having failed.

Wait a second...are you suggesting that the fear of not being able to provide for a wife and family is what drives young men to video games and pornography?

 

[herringbonekid]

Wait a second...are you suggesting that the fear of not being able to provide for a wife and family is what drives young men to video games and pornography?

no, the digital addiction seemed to precede the ineptness with young women. actually these young men weren't so much inept as entirely unmotivated to pursue a real relationship with a real person. they viewed their 'virtual girlfriends' as much less daunting.

not my suggestion either... it was the subject of a documentary (specifically about Japanese young men).

 

[Edward]

A colleague once worked out that if 90% of the UK's population was wiped out, the UK would still have the population density of the state of Montana. Yes, I think some of us could benefit from a reduction in population (it's just that I don't want me or my family to be part of it.)

The Utopia approach appeals to me.

Get a cat. They're cleaner, more intelligent, and take up much less of the bed.

There are plenty of reasons I opted for cats instad of children, though they certainly don't take up less of the bed than a full-grown human... I've woken up perched on one edge, while Miss Greta and/or her sister Marlene are sprawled out across the rest of the bed...

But there are also some women who have an idea in their head that they always *have* to have a man. Any man (even a man-boy) trumps being single. I guess I can't really understand this, but I come from a place of privilege as I've been married more of my adult life (in a good marriage) than I've single, so I can't understand the pressures on a young woman who is single to be in a relationship. I know that for some of my single girl friends the pressure to get married and settle down is overwhelming once they hit their mid-thirties.

It's common among men too, but much less so than with women. I never understood the fear of being alone such people have. I've probably spent less than a fifth of my life in total in a relationship, but I was always perfectly happy on my own. I reserved a special kind of withering contempt for anyone who couldn't understand that.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

no, the digital addiction seemed to precede the ineptness with young women. actually these young men weren't so much inept as entirely unmotivated to pursue a real relationship with a real person. they viewed their 'virtual girlfriends' as much less daunting.

not my suggestion either... it was the subject of a documentary (specifically about Japanese young men).

Was it a Vice documentary? I think I saw it too. Vice can be quite nasty and sensationalist but sometimes they have interesting topics.
The part that struck me was that marriage is still seen as the only form to raise kids in Japan. The whole thing is quite conservative and traditional, really. But instead of protecting "tradional marriages" and protecting familiy values it works AGAINST them and they choose to have no relationship at all. It's not because of the "decadence of modern times" but because they couldn't resolve the clash between modern and traditional.
It's avoidance not a revolution.

 

[herringbonekid]

Was it a Vice documentary? I think I saw it too.

no, it was this Beeb one, no longer available unfortunately:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03fh0bg

article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24614830

 

[LizzieMaine]

There are plenty of reasons I opted for cats instad of children, though they certainly don't take up less of the bed than a full-grown human... I've woken up perched on one edge, while Miss Greta and/or her sister Marlene are sprawled out across the rest of the bed...

This is where you show the cat you know who's boss. You get up and go out and sleep on the porch.

 

[HudsonHawk]

no, the digital addiction seemed to precede the ineptness with young women. actually these young men weren't so much inept as entirely unmotivated to pursue a real relationship with a real person. they viewed their 'virtual girlfriends' as much less daunting.

not my suggestion either... it was the subject of a documentary (specifically about Japanese young men).

OK. Your post indicated that the "reasons behind" the ineptness and laziness, and consequently the video games and porn, was the fear of not being adequate. I think that's completely backwards. The ineptness and fear are a consequence of the lazy, video game playing, porn watching, instant gratification culture, not the cause.

 

[sheeplady]

if girls have several 'pointless' relationships in a row then i would question their ability to choose decent partners. i don't buy the idea that these poor ladies are only able to realise what a jerk their boyfriend is once they've moved in with him.

secondly, the choice doesn't have to be between rubbish boyfriends or living alone. the other option is finding a decent boyfriend.

Agreed, but I think we all know people (of both sexes) who are with or have been with bad matches. It happens. Personally, I think a lot of people of both sexes need to set higher standards for themselves and others.

Most parents don't teach their children about relationships (The Talk is what most kids get, if that). Some of that is because a lot of parents are clueless because their own relationships are messed up, some because they don't think it's important, but mainly because society hasn't emphasized that. (Besides, I believe if we had more talk about relationships with kids, I bet there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies and fewer STD transmissions.)

I can tell you, if I had to choose between my daughter coming home with an unwanted pregnancy or not coming home because she dated an abusive ******* who killed her when she left him; I know which one I would choose.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Most parents don't teach their children about relationships (The Talk is what most kids get, if that). Some of that is because a lot of parents are clueless because their own relationships are messed up, some because they don't think it's important, but mainly because society hasn't emphasized that. (Besides, I believe if we had more talk about relationships with kids, I bet there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies and fewer STD transmissions.)

That's exactly right. All we've heard from the mass culture for the last forty years is Sex, Sex, Sex, Sex, Sex. If you're not out there gettin' any, there's something wrong with you, so go to it and damn the consequences. Women are told the way to approach sex is "like a man -- with no strings, no entanglements, woo hoo." That's the ideal, and that's the be-all and end-all. And when the sex isn't any good anymore, well, there's no point in carrying on the relationship because as we all know sex is the most important thing in the universe.

And we end up with a generation of emotional cripples and we wonder why.

 

[2jakes]

Agreed, but I think we all know people (of both sexes) who are with or have been with bad matches. It happens. Personally, I think a lot of people of both sexes need to set higher standards for themselves and others.

Most parents don't teach their children about relationships (The Talk is what most kids get, if that). Some of that is because a lot of parents are clueless because their own relationships a

"MOST PARENTS DON"T TEACH THEIR CHILDREN"....so true !

Growing up with 5 sisters. After 30 + years. One of them confided to me recently about her first time
she had her period.
Scared ,she went to mother who told her to talk to the oldest sister about it.
Pure ignorance & probably her mother told her the same when she was at that age.

Mother doesn't remember now so I won't bring it up to her . But it's sad how it can affect the young
later in life.

On my part growing up...I slowly learned about sex through dirty jokes the guys would tell
at school. I had no idea what they were talking about...but pretended like a dummy that I
understood. Kids can be very cruel at that age.

I asked my mother.."mom what does frog you mean ?" ( that's what I actually thought the
kids were saying.) She slapped my face . Later ..I found out.
And for the longest time ...I could not conceive my folks doing "that" ...:eusa_doh:

Sorry I tend to ramble LOL

 

[Big J]

Was it a Vice documentary? I think I saw it too. Vice can be quite nasty and sensationalist but sometimes they have interesting topics.
The part that struck me was that marriage is still seen as the only form to raise kids in Japan. The whole thing is quite conservative and traditional, really. But instead of protecting "tradional marriages" and protecting familiy values it works AGAINST them and they choose to have no relationship at all. It's not because of the "decadence of modern times" but because they couldn't resolve the clash between modern and traditional.
It's avoidance not a revolution.

I think you have to be very careful framing the Japanese problem in terms of 'tradition' and 'modern', because a large majority of Japanese (including the Prime Minister) see 'true' Japanese social values as being at their high-point in the 1930's (when women had no vote or legal rights), and everything after that (for example, votes for women) not as modernization, or globalization of social values, but rather as the 'Americanization' of Japan, and a 'corrupting influence that is incompatible with Japanese values' (that's a quote, by the way).

Japan still maintains the pre-war family registry system, which was designed to control legal authority over family members (women having no say, at that time), and has not changed very much. As recently as 2011 there was a proposition amongst law-makers to allow women to keep their family name after marriage, which was shot down by the majority as 'an attempt to destroy Japan's unique culture' since in spirit, if no longer in law, a woman is always a husbands or relatives property.

Japan's medieval family registry system, with all of it's implied legal inflexibility, is a major factor in women not wishing to get married, and it gives men a hopelessly out of date and unrealistic expectation and sense of entitlement, that when they get married, they will have a sense of legal power over their wives.

Since I am a foreigner, I don't have a family registry of my own, and had to be added to my wife's, which whilst not being so uncommon in this day and age, still causes many government officials to sigh and scratch their heads, since the paperwork now doesn't follow the 'system' that it would if I had been Japanese. Also, my wife and I kept our respective pre-marriage names, since I can't change mine to hers legally in Japan, and she can't change hers without coming off her families family registry. Of course, this should serve to the powers that be as an example of what happens when feudal era systems are maintained in a globalized world, but instead the public debate is about how foreigners come to Japan, marry Japanese girls, and 'disrupt government record keeping'.

Anyway, personal anecdotes aside, all I really mean to say is that framing discussion regarding Japan as a 'clash between modern and traditional' really just plays into the hands of Japanese nationalists, and their distorted world image that tells them (and they are surprisingly many) that all social changes in the west and Japan since 1945 (and accompanying belief in the concept of Basic Human Rights) is an anti-Japanese American imposition of 'victor's justice' (oh, that's another quote by the PM, BTW), and not 'social progress' as I'm sure many westerners (especially women like my mother, who was able to divorce with child visitation rights and alimony) believe.

 

[sheeplady]

"MOST PARENTS DON"T TEACH THEIR CHILDREN"....so true !

Growing up with 5 sisters. After 30 + years. One of them confided to me recently about her first time
she had her period.
Scared ,she went to mother who told her to talk to the oldest sister about it.

I had a friend in high school who confided to me that when she got her first period she thought she was hemorrhaging to death from internal bleeding and called the operator (now 911). She started a bit earlier than her girl friends at the time. Her mother had her removed from the half-day sex-ed session we had in 5th grade because she felt that the class would lead her daughter to promiscuity, and she got her period later that same year. She obviously didn't teach her kid about it, either.

The only positive about this story is my friend said the operator was very kind and took the time to explain to her about what was happening.

This is what happens when you don't teach your kids about stuff. They will find random people to teach them. Those random people might not always be good ones.