Hat Corporation of America Block Profile Numbers

[Brad Bowers]

Cool Mexicali Dobbs! HCA exported hats, but few of them turn up on the Lounge.

Yeah, the thing to remember about HCA is that, even though they prided themselves on creating the latest "styles," a significant proportion of their clientele by the '50s and '60s appears to have been older gentlemen who were comfortable with the older styles, and preferred to wear those. I have a Cavanagh, same '60s vintage as yours, but is a close match in most respects to my '33-'35 NRA Cavanagh. They just kept cranking them out. You can find older-styled Dobbs, Knox, and Cavanagh hats produced well into the 1960s.

Brad

 

[Purplesage]

Dunlop Twenty Block 5361, Depth 5 3/4

Brad so what age do you think the Mexicali Dobbs is? Also, what's your interpretation of "714" on the tag above Block? Is this supposed to mean 7 1/4 US or is this the Block number? Of course the size "58" is pretty obvious. I'm not doubting you but I would still be shocked if that was a 60s Dobbs. Alas, the Mexicali has found a new home so I can't inspect it further. I have some older Cavanaghs, or at least I think the are, 53 at the latest I believe. I will try to post them when I get the chance. I have a real nice Cavanagh 100 which I picked up for practically nothing. It has one spot on the underside of the brim edge where the critters did some grazing but you don't really notice it unless you're looking. I just needs cleaned and blocked and it will be as good as new although it has quite a bit of character as is.

Didn't see any Dunlops on here. This Dunlop Twenty has a 2" brim with a Custom Edge (underwelt) and a 5 3/4" crown with a 1 5/8" grosgrain ribbon. The inside of the hat has an oilskin liner protector and the sweatband is like the one on the Gamebird that I just posted "COMFIT, Pat. 2632175, Other Pats. Pend." This is the same Pat. number as the Patterson Hat Sizer. Not sure what it means by Other Pats. Pending! So if Patterson filed for the Patent, I guess Dobbs had to get permission to use the Patterson Hat Sizer which they called COMFIT. Was it called COMFIT on all HCA brands? I guess the Dunlop Custom Edge is nothing more than an underwent!

 

[alanfgag]

Dunlap... here.

 

[Joshbru3]

This one has me very interested. It has a 5 3/4 inch open crown but only a 2 inch brim. Dimension wise its very reminiscent of a 1930's hat based on proportions, but obviously based on the liner and sweatband its a 50's hat. I know that HCA made hats with full crowns and brims into the 60's, but its not usual that you find a 50's hat with a full 5 3/4 inch crown AND short brim.

Also block 5361 has been listed on the master list with heights of 5 1/2 and 5 5/8, but NOT 5 3/4. We have a new entry!

 

[Joshbru3]

UPDATED LIST (Effective 12-18-2013, 9:58am Central time)

Profile - Depth
54 – 5 3/4
62 - 6
68 - 4 1/8
91 - 5 3/4
105 - 5 3/8
151 - 5 1/2
164 - 5 1/2
419 - 5
461 - 5 1/2
600 - 5 3/8
600 - 5 1/2
600 - 5 3/4
824 - 5 1/2
824 - 5 5/8
925 - 5
1020 - 5 1/4
4605 - 5 3/4
5025 - 5 1/2
5064 - 5 1/2
5064 - 5 5/8
5064 - 5 3/4
5067 - 5 3/8
5181 - 5 3/4
5193 - 5 5/8
5233 - 5 3/4
5233 - 6
5234 - 5 7/8
5251 - 6
5262 - 5 5/8
5288 - 5 3/8
5330 - 5 3/4
5330 - 5 7/8
5339 - 5 7/8
5361 - 5 1/2
5361 - 5 5/8
5361 - 5 3/4
5364 - 5 5/8
5725 - 5 5/8

 

[Purplesage]

I thought the deminsions of the hat were also reminiscent of the 30s when I first bought it a couple of years ago. If the brim were anything shorter than 2" I wouldn't have kept it. Stylewise it seems to work though. I wear it with the sides pinched which I think works well with this one and was popular with 30s era hats and older. For some reason I was thinking the Dobbs Custom Edge was similar to a Cavanagh Edge but I guess that would be what they call their Guild Edge. I guess the Dobbs Custom Edge would be either an underwelt like the Dunlop has or it might also include an overwelt! On the other hand, Knox's Custom Edge is essentially a Cavanagh Edge. It all gets very confusing. I wouldn't mind finding another Dunlop (40s or older) since you don't see them that often. I did notice the Block 5361 was on the list but not with a 5 3/4" depth.

 

[Brad Bowers]

This one has me very interested. It has a 5 3/4 inch open crown but only a 2 inch brim. Dimension wise its very reminiscent of a 1930's hat based on proportions, but obviously based on the liner and sweatband its a 50's hat. I know that HCA made hats with full crowns and brims into the 60's, but its not usual that you find a 50's hat with a full 5 3/4 inch crown AND short brim.

My take on the Dunlap's brim is that it was trimmed and welted later in its life, as happened to many wider brims in the '60s. A '50s "Twenty" hat would have come with a felted edge, not a welted one, as reflected by the Custom Edge stamp. I can't see HCA watering down their Custom Edge trademark as a felted edge on a Knox and a welted edge on a Dunlap. It would mean the same thing regardless of brand.

Brad so what age do you think the Mexicali Dobbs is? Also, what's your interpretation of "714" on the tag above Block? Is this supposed to mean 7 1/4 US or is this the Block number? Of course the size "58" is pretty obvious. I'm not doubting you but I would still be shocked if that was a 60s Dobbs. Alas, the Mexicali has found a new home so I can't inspect it further. I have some older Cavanaghs, or at least I think the are, 53 at the latest I believe. I will try to post them when I get the chance. I have a real nice Cavanagh 100 which I picked up for practically nothing. It has one spot on the underside of the brim edge where the critters did some grazing but you don't really notice it unless you're looking. I just needs cleaned and blocked and it will be as good as new although it has quite a bit of character as is.

It's hard to say on the 714. It could just be a coincidence that it matches the size, but it almost seems unlikely. We also haven't run across that block number before. It could just be something peculiar to the export market.

I stand by my 1960s estimate, as the factory tags are the single most accurate tool. Looks are deceiving in crown height and brim width. To support my earlier claim, here is a report on hat trends from January 1965 (bold emphasis is mine):

“Brim widths, already the narrowest in the world, remain standard 1 and 5/8 inch with a few exceptions. Young men who want to look jazzy are wearing them as narrow as one inch (some in white felt). The more conservative are 2 inches. Older men stick with the 2 ½ to 3 inch width they have worn for years.”

This is the same Pat. number as the Patterson Hat Sizer. Not sure what it means by Other Pats. Pending! So if Patterson filed for the Patent, I guess Dobbs had to get permission to use the Patterson Hat Sizer which they called COMFIT. Was it called COMFIT on all HCA brands?

I've not figured out what the other patents are to which it's referring. Yes, as I said in my earlier post, Hat Corporation of America would have had to either purchase or license the patent from Patterson in order to use it. In either case, HCA seems to have had exclusive rights to the patent, as I don't think we've seen it on any other manufacturers' hats.

COMFIT was originally a Knox & Dunlap trademark used for their sennit straw hats, and referred to the flexible weave of the straw that allowed it to conform to the wearer's head, rather than a sweatband. Knox continued using it for their straws at least in the 1930s, but by then they were part of Hat Corporation of America. The trademark was revived for the Patterson patent sweatbands and apparently only used in Knox and Dunlap hats. I don't know if we've seen it applied to other brands for this patent. However, in 1965 HCA used the COMFIT trademark for a new Dacron, Cotton, and Lycra sweatband, and it was applied Knox and Dobbs hats.

EDIT: Dobbs used the name "Leisure Flex" for the Patterson patent sweatband. I knew they used a different name, I just couldn't remember it off the top of my head. I had to go digging through photographs to find it. Interestingly enough, the name was also originally used on sennit straw hats by Dobbs.

Brad

 

[Brad Bowers]

I thought the deminsions of the hat were also reminiscent of the 30s when I first bought it a couple of years ago. If the brim were anything shorter than 2" I wouldn't have kept it. Stylewise it seems to work though. I wear it with the sides pinched which I think works well with this one and was popular with 30s era hats and older. For some reason I was thinking the Dobbs Custom Edge was similar to a Cavanagh Edge but I guess that would be what they call their Guild Edge. I guess the Dobbs Custom Edge would be either an underwelt like the Dunlop has or it might also include an overwelt! On the other hand, Knox's Custom Edge is essentially a Cavanagh Edge. It all gets very confusing. I wouldn't mind finding another Dunlop (40s or older) since you don't see them that often. I did notice the Block 5361 was on the list but not with a 5 3/4" depth.

Yeah, Custom Edge was used by Knox and Dunlap in 1931. Dobbs used Guild Edge starting in 1944, and Cavanagh used Cavanagh Edge from 1928, though it doesn't make it's appearance at the front of sweatbands until the early-'50s. But, they are all referring to the same felted edge. Dobbs used the term "Dobbs Edge" to refer to their welted edges in the '50 and '60s. I don't think Knox or Cavanagh had a name for their welted edges.

Brad

 

[Purplesage]

Cavanagh Block 5064, Depth 5 5/8

Just putting a hat with the numbers. Already on the list.

 

[Purplesage]

Knox Fifteen Tom n Jerry (Block 6165, Depth 4 1/8)

I think this is a new Block Number to add to the list. The depth is 4 1/8 but it seems taller because of the proportions of the hat. I normally can't wear a low crown like porkpie hats usually have but I feel comfortable wearing this hat. Another example of the COMFIT sweatband.

 

[Purplesage]

Dobbs Gamebird Block 82, Depth 5 3/4

I believe Block 82, 5 3/4, is a new one to add to the list.

 

[Purplesage]

Knox Vagabond, Block 105, Depth 5 3/8

Just putting a hat with the Block. This one is already on the list.

 

[Purplesage]

Dobbs Fifteen Block 511, Depth 5 1/2

I don't recall seeing Block 511, Depth 5 1/2, on the list. I'm Thinking late 40s or early 50s!

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

Love the felt on my list of hats to get is one with felt like this. I also like the pinch in the ribbon at the center too. Nice Game bird.

 

[Purplesage]

Thanks Ed I really like the felt of this one to. It is so easy pinch or crease anyway you like.

 

[alanfgag]

Nice Game bird.

+1.

 

[Purplesage]

Knox Premier Block 82, Depth 5 3/4

Another new one, Block 82, Depth 5 3/4.

 

[Purplesage]

Cavanagh Block 8825, Depth 5 1/2

Block 8825, Depth 5 1/2, is a new one to add to the list. The $15.00 OPS-SEC price tag would place this hat in the early 50s. The hat is in fine condition with the exception of the sweatband.

 

[Purplesage]

Knoxs Twenty Custom Edge Block 8825, Depth 5 3/8

I didn't see Block 8825, Depth 5 3/8 on the list. Need help dating this one.

 

[Brad Bowers]

'50s, though it looks like maybe their label printer broke down and they had to type it out. lol Haven't seen that done before, though we've seen them hand-written from that era. Maybe some of the '50s label discrepancies date to the '53-'54 strike, resulting from people unfamiliar with the equipment. Just an idle thought.

Brad