HARLEY x Real McCoy x Jason Momoa Horse hide D pocket 1940s

[Tom71]

While I do see the appeal of vintage originals, I don’t quite get TFLs current trend to condemn anything repro.

Vintage originals are hardly available outside the US (or Japan) and not at all in sizes 42 or larger. Even if they were, the proportions pre 1960 are likely to look off on somebody tall and lean.
The repro market is a good way to transfer original designs into modern cuts using un-rotted leather, lining etc.

Yeah, it’s great if you can find an original in decent shape that fits you. There are many examples around these parts. A well-made repro, IMO, still has its place, even if it deviates from the original to meet modern expectations re fit etc.

 

[58panheadfan]

While I do see the appeal of vintage originals, I don’t quite get TFLs current trend to condemn anything repro.

Vintage originals are hardly available outside the US (or Japan) and not at all in sizes 42 or larger. Even if they were, the proportions pre 1960 are likely to look off on somebody tall and lean.
The repro market is a good way to transfer original designs into modern cuts using un-rotted leather, lining etc.

Yeah, it’s great if you can find an original in decent shape that fits you. There are many around these parts. A well-made repro, IMO, still has its place, even if it deviates from the original to meet modern expectations re fit etc.

+1

Every now and then the scene in our niche hobby has to reinvent itself, currently the trend is towards original jackets. As you rightly mentioned, you have to be lucky if the body proportions match a vintage jacket. You have to be even luckier if you find a jacket in good condition at a reasonable price. Many original leather jackets are garbage (there are exceptions of course), they stink, have worn linings, hard & brittle leather and then end up in a collection that can never be worn.

 

[AHP91]

+1

Every now and then the scene in our niche hobby has to reinvent itself, currently the trend is towards original jackets. As you rightly mentioned, you have to be lucky if the body proportions match a vintage jacket. You have to be even luckier if you find a jacket in good condition at a reasonable price. Many original leather jackets are garbage (there are exceptions of course), they stink, have worn linings, hard & brittle leather and then end up in a collection that can never be worn.

Ah I see, @tmitchell59 was ahead of the curve and was taking the large sized beautiful originals when no one wanted them, as they already put in their custom reproduction orders. Some are ahead of the curve; I heard years ago many from Japan were snatching up all the cool old denim and other clothing that are now highly sought after.

 

[Marc mndt]

You have to be even luckier if you find a jacket in good condition at a reasonable price.

This is an interesting topic on its own. What is a reasonable price for a vintage original vs a repro?

When we see a vintage Buco in good condition listed on eBay for €2K people comment that Buco's are hyped. While a lot of people are buying RMC J-24 repro's which are much more expensive.

An original will hold its value much better than the repro which easily loses 30% of its value the moment it leaves the store.

Personally I consider vintage originals to be a much better deal than their repro counterparts.

 

[Mich486]

Unless it’s deadstock a vintage will never feel like a new jacket. At the same time a repro will hardly ever look like an original. It depends what is important for you.

Also, some vintage designs are hard to style without looking costumey and there is where vintage inspired clothing comes in. Again it really depends what one is after. I think they are different products.

 

[jeo]

While I do see the appeal of vintage originals, I don’t quite get TFLs current trend to condemn anything repro.

Didn’t realize there’s a trend condemning repros.

The original vs. repro question has been asked forever and there've been waves throughout the years with the current trend favoring vintage but I don’t see anyone condemning repros.

 

[Nacho]

Personally, I prefer vintage over repro.

I like the challenges that come with acquiring a decent shape vintage piece, from setting up eBay notifications, making friends with vintage dealers and other collectors to negotiating and convincing people to sell their piece at a reasonable price to cleaning the jacket and bringing it back to life.

Getting a decent vintage jacket can be done. It just takes time, effort and some lucks. And the end results are often rewarding. Not to say you don’t run into a bad one here and there. Also, if you’re lucky and get to buy a jacket from its original owner, it’s a bonus to learn about their stories as well.

Repros seem too easy for me. If you have the money, you can buy one. That being said, it does have its place. For rare jackets such as Trojan, LA Sportswear, etc., repro might be the only way to go.

 

[58panheadfan]

This is an interesting topic on its own. What is a reasonable price for a vintage original vs a repro?

When we see a vintage Buco in good condition listed on eBay for €2K people comment that Buco's are hyped. While a lot of people are buying RMC J-24 repro's which are much more expensive.

An original will hold its value much better than the repro which easily loses 30% of its value the moment it leaves the store.

Personally I consider vintage originals to be a much better deal than their repro counterparts.

I agree with you Marc, originals are definitely more valuable than reproductions (at least in most cases) and this doesn't just apply to leather jackets. If you want to start a (jacket) collection based on these considerations, there is no alternative to original material. For me personally, and that's what I meant by resonable price, when it comes to original stuff I'm actually only interested in NOS (new old stock) items.

 

[58panheadfan]

Unless it’s deadstock a vintage will never feel like a new jacket. At the same time a repro will hardly ever look like an original. It depends what is important for you.

Also, some vintage designs are hard to style without looking costumey and there is where vintage inspired clothing comes in. Again it really depends what one is after. I think they are different products.

Absolutely 100 percent, that's exactly how I see it and as you rightly mentioned, the gap between "costumed" is narrow if you went with more than e.g. a jacket in my opinion. I don't want to dress like I'm in my 30s/40s/50s and then feel like I'm going to a costume ball. But of course that is everyone's own decision and personal preference.

 

[58panheadfan]

Personally, I prefer vintage over repro.

I like the challenges that come with acquiring a decent shape vintage piece, from setting up eBay notifications, making friends with vintage dealers and other collectors to negotiating and convincing people to sell their piece at a reasonable price to cleaning the jacket and bringing it back to life.

Getting a decent vintage jacket can be done. It just takes time, effort and some lucks. And the end results are often rewarding. Not to say you don’t run into a bad one here and there. Also, if you’re lucky and get to buy a jacket from its original owner, it’s a bonus to learn about their stories as well.

Repros seem too easy for me. If you have the money, you can buy one. That being said, it does have its place. For rare jackets such as Trojan, LA Sportswear, etc., repro might be the only way to go.

Absolutely, I see it that way too, but I still haven't followed the original vintage trend for leather (jackets) even though I've been in the "business" for a long time. Firstly because (for example) I don't want to wear a jacket whose history I don't know, maybe someone died in it (karma) and secondly I want to give my (repro) jacket its own life right from the start. I want it to get to my body and be comfortable to wear. Of course, this can also be the case with original jackets, but from my experience, this was (mostly) not the case, especially with leather jackets. With all the original pieces I had, I had the feeling that they were worn by someone else, which is true. The older an original leather jacket is and the more it has been worn by someone else, the less interesting it is to me. That's why as I mentioned before, for me personally only NOS comes into consideration when it comes to leather jackets, so I stick with the repros that I can breathe my own life into it.

 

[Tom71]

Didn’t realize there’s a trend condemning repros.

The original vs. repro question has been asked forever and there've been waves throughout the years with the current trend favoring vintage but I don’t see anyone condemning repros.

Fair point. I was perhaps cutting corners in my remark.

What I meant is, whenever a repro comes up, there will be posts negatively commenting on any deviation from the original, price, appeal, maker in general.
To my mind, this very thread is a good example.

As to trend: only a few years ago, I perceived an openness towards reputable makers, extending their portfolio for repros. An example would be Lost Worlds, who´s Leathertogs A/B have been positively endorsed.

 

[AHP91]

Absolutely, I see it that way too, but I still haven't followed the original vintage trend for leather (jackets) even though I've been in the "business" for a long time. Firstly because (for example) I don't want to wear a jacket whose history I don't know, maybe someone died in it (karma) and secondly I want to give my (repro) jacket its own life right from the start. I want it to get to my body and be comfortable to wear. Of course, this can also be the case with original jackets, but from my experience, this was (mostly) not the case, especially with leather jackets. With all the original pieces I had, I had the feeling that they were worn by someone else, which is true. The older an original leather jacket is and the more it has been worn by someone else, the less interesting it is to me. That's why as I mentioned before, for me personally only NOS comes into consideration when it comes to leather jackets, so I stick with the repros that I can breathe my own life into it.

My opinion - NOS is just some buzzword that sellers use to list their price sky high, at least when it pertains to leather jackets. What does a NOS jacket look like? Is it still in the original sealed packaging box? How many of those do you see?

I’ve bought a few old jackets that looked pretty good in pictures, and they look even better in person. I find it incredible that some 80 year old jacket looks like it’s been cared for all those years. NOS? No. But that’s as good as it gets for me

 

[Tom71]

Personally, I prefer vintage over repro.

I like the challenges that come with acquiring a decent shape vintage piece, from setting up eBay notifications, making friends with vintage dealers and other collectors to negotiating and convincing people to sell their piece at a reasonable price to cleaning the jacket and bringing it back to life.

Getting a decent vintage jacket can be done. It just takes time, effort and some lucks. And the end results are often rewarding. Not to say you don’t run into a bad one here and there. Also, if you’re lucky and get to buy a jacket from its original owner, it’s a bonus to learn about their stories as well.

Repros seem too easy for me. If you have the money, you can buy one. That being said, it does have its place. For rare jackets such as Trojan, LA Sportswear, etc., repro might be the only way to go.

Totally understood. And the results can spectacular, as seen with some outstanding originals worn by @jeo, @Marc mndt, @ton312 or of course @tmitchell59, to name but a few.

Thing is: Even if I found a jacket in my size in decent condition (and I am sbolutely not willing to invest the amount of time needed for the hunt), I could not pull off a vintage look without changing part of my wardrobe (I am not wearing high-rise trousers to begin with).

 

[jeo]

Fair point. I was perhaps cutting corners in my remark.

What I meant is, whenever a repro comes up, there will be posts negatively commenting on any deviation from the original, price, appeal, maker in general.
To my mind, this very thread is a good example.

As to trend: only a few years ago, I perceived an openness towards reputable makers, extending their portfolio for repros. An example would be Lost Worlds, who´s Leathertogs A/B have been positively endorsed.

I see what you mean now. I think critique here is generally fair when it comes to the accuracy of repros.

I think the repro brands are generally highly regarded and liked.

Price is always a hot topic, regardless if it’s repros or originals. Many people don’t want to pay $2500+ for a Buco repro by RMC and at the same time many people think that $1000-$1300 for an original Buco in good condition is outrageous.

 

[Tom71]

Absolutely, I see it that way too, but I still haven't followed the original vintage trend for leather (jackets) even though I've been in the "business" for a long time. Firstly because (for example) I don't want to wear a jacket whose history I don't know, maybe someone died in it (karma) and secondly I want to give my (repro) jacket its own life right from the start. I want it to get to my body and be comfortable to wear. Of course, this can also be the case with original jackets, but from my experience, this was (mostly) not the case, especially with leather jackets. With all the original pieces I had, I had the feeling that they were worn by someone else, which is true. The older an original leather jacket is and the more it has been worn by someone else, the less interesting it is to me. That's why as I mentioned before, for me personally only NOS comes into consideration when it comes to leather jackets, so I stick with the repros that I can breathe my own life into it.

Yupp, same for me. I tried a few vintage jackets and always moved them on fast. Never could shake the feeling of wearing an old (as in "no longer pleasant") piece.

 

[58panheadfan]

Ah I see, @tmitchell59 was ahead of the curve and was taking the large sized beautiful originals when no one wanted them, as they already put in their custom reproduction orders. Some are ahead of the curve; I heard years ago many from Japan were snatching up all the cool old denim and other clothing that are now highly sought after.

I don't know if it's really a curve. It's more of a spiral that can go in one direction or the other. It is true, in the 80s and early 90s the Japanese brought many parts bought for cheap in today's eyes from the USA (clothes, motorcycles, motorcycle parts, etc.) to Japan. In addition, thanks to wabi-sabi, the Japanese have a slightly different way of thinking about the wear and tear/contemporary history of objects. For the H-D scene e.g. spoken: It's unbelievable how much the guys (in the USA) destroyed all of the original history by chopping original frames, practically every beautiful patinated motorcycle part was destroyed by a chrome layer etc. But it was hip back then in the easy-rider era. There was no after market back then like today and the original material was still present in abundance. I always have to laugh, what is now referred to as "patina" on motorcycles has nothing to do with aging gracefully by wear and tear through use. This is the pure Archaeological find, rusty, poorly stored and sold for high prices on the market as patinated. The Japanese were smarter, they preserved the patina on the parts they (cheaply) bought at the time. But a trend can also be seen in the antique, vintage H-D scene. The young people have much less connection to mechanics etc. and the old geezers are dying out. Spoken by the AMCA (Antique Motorcyle Club of America) I estimate the average age is 60 years up. It's crucial when you get into the spiral, mentioned above. Like the Japanese in the 80s when the collector's items mentioned, were still available for "free", or at the end of the spiral with top prices for crap.

By the way, this doesn't just apply to the H-D motorcycles/parts mentioned. It's no different, for example, than to the original J24 Buco leather jackets mentioned by @Marc mndt. Previously mass-produced products, they're now rare and when one comes onto the market in good condition, it's hyper expensive just completely worn out jackets. What do I want with a leather jacket, even if it's original, that has holes/torn out lining, cuffs etc. or the leather is as hard as a board or, even worse, the lining has been replaced? This is about the same as the previously mentioned chrome mania in the USA in the late 70s / 80s - original destroyed forever.

 

[AHP91]

I don't know if it's really a curve. It's more of a spiral that can go in one direction or the other. It is true, in the 80s and early 90s the Japanese brought many parts bought for cheap in today's eyes from the USA (clothes, motorcycles, motorcycle parts, etc.) to Japan. In addition, thanks to wabi-sabi, the Japanese have a slightly different way of thinking about the wear and tear/contemporary history of objects. For the H-D scene e.g. spoken: It's unbelievable how much the guys (in the USA) destroyed all of the original history by chopping original frames, practically every beautiful patinated motorcycle part was destroyed by a chrome layer etc. But it was hip back then in the easy-rider era. There was no after market back then like today and the original material was still present in abundance. I always have to laugh, what is now referred to as "patina" on motorcycles has nothing to do with aging gracefully by wear and tear through use. This is the pure Archaeological find, rusty, poorly stored and sold for high prices on the market as patinated. The Japanese were smarter, they preserved the patina on the parts they (cheaply) bought at the time. But a trend can also be seen in the antique, vintage H-D scene. The young people have much less connection to mechanics etc. and the old geezers are dying out. Spoken by the AMCA (Antique Motorcyle Club of America) I estimate the average age is 60 years up. It's crucial when you get into the spiral, mentioned above. Like the Japanese in the 80s when the collector's items mentioned, were still available for "free", or at the end of the spiral with top prices for crap.

By the way, this doesn't just apply to the H-D motorcycles/parts mentioned. It's no different, for example, than to the original J24 Buco leather jackets mentioned by @Marc mndt. Previously mass-produced products, they're now rare and when one comes onto the market in good condition, it's hyper expensive just completely worn out jackets. What do I want with a leather jacket, even if it's original, that has holes/torn out lining, cuffs etc. or the leather is as hard as a board or, even worse, the lining has been replaced? This is about the same as the previously mentioned chrome mania in the USA in the late 70s / 80s - original destroyed forever.

Appreciate the info. I find it pretty cool to even find old jackets that are still in wearing condition. Little nibble of a lining won’t deter me. I have some hoodies from a year ago that haven’t held up as well. I may just also ascribe to the wabi sabi way

 

[58panheadfan]

Appreciate the info. I find it pretty cool to even find old jackets that are still in wearing condition. Little nibble of a lining won’t deter me. I have some hoodies from a year ago that haven’t held up as well. I may just also ascribe to the wabi sabi way

I think everyone has their own preferences in this regard. For some, the condition etc. doesn't play such an important role. For others, an original, used leather jacket is a no-go. However, true is, what used to be valuable back in the days (duesenberg, ferrari gto, for example in cars or as related to leather jackets like trojan, leather togs) still has value today.

 

[58panheadfan]

I don't want to open Pandora's box here, but the original leather jackets that are posted here in this forum are okay, can be found with a little patience and in good condition for fair prices. @jeo @tmitchell59's collections are cool and stand out from the crowd. But I have read and heard about leather jacket collections from Japanese collectors that are beyond anything that has ever existed. Unfortunately, little or nothing is made public, as is often the case with weirdos who stash their collections somewhere. But what I actually mean by that is, for me if original then in great condition (NOS) rare, priceless, unique and that's why I stay away from it - LOL

 

[ton312]

It's such an age old debate...my personal pendulum has swung in favor of both over the years. All the critiques of both types are valid, as is the praise. The vintage market is far more frustrating, no question about it. Vintage jackets always seem to look cooler but often don't fit as well. You certainly have to be more forgiving with vintage stuff. There's also deliberate omissions from sellers pertaining to condition that can sour the experience. I only have one true vintage 50's era HH jacket left and I'd be hard pressed to pursue another. In fairness my interest in leather has genuinely waned. I suppose I've reached the limit of how much excitement these things can generate for me. There's only so many times I can look at a crosszip or halfbelt and feel wowed, repro or original.