Goodwear Leathers, the waiting starts...

[plainsman]

I would think that the most important is how much one enjoys his/her jacket. Beyond exclusivity of a leather or number of stitches, fit and purpose appears more important in my eyes. There is anyway some inconsistency in justifying our purchases, anyway (e.g. i smiled reading about not knowing who made your Aero jacket personally, but raving about RMC). While at the same time, i see people selling jackets that looked great on them, in order to have the next best thing that may not turn out such a great fit. I love my Vanson and Aero and i admired some Goodwear i saw here, but not all.

 

[Mark]

Definitely a fair question and not worded for a fight at all.

I don't own any Chapman jackets specifically, but I can say why I think other makers may be worth the premium over the Aeros I have seen and the Alexander jacket I used to own (and the DD jacket I used to own). First of all, the problem with Aero and Alexander jackets is that the stitching and craftsmanship is very much dependent on who is specifically making the jacket. You could end up with a near perfect Aero/Alexander or a less than ideal one fairly easily. With brands like The Flat Head and The Real McCoys, pretty much every jacket I have seen/handled/owned has been laser perfect. When you see one in person, you have a new definition of what perfect stitching is. Does that make a difference to some? No. It shouldn't to everyone, but it does to me. My RMC jacket is so perfectly constructed that it appears as though it was made by a group of robots who were programmed by robots.

Honestly, Aero and Alexander's stitching is pretty good, but it's not up to par with the Japanese brands (RMC, Freewheelers, Rainbow Country, and The Flat Head). Heck, at this point I can even tell the difference in pictures. One thing I have noticed is the stitches per inches. The Japanese (as well as Himel) have a far higher stitch count per inch than the Scottish brands, who I have noticed in particular have a very low stitch count. Again, does this really matter? Maybe not, but you asked and stuff like this matters to me

Another difference is just the leather itself. We can argue over which leather is actually the best in the world until all animals are extinct, but it's commonly accepted that Shinki horsehide is the most expensive and arguably the most desirable leather in the world for jackets. Not everyone likes it, but it does actually cost the most (as Himel's pricing of it vs. his Italian HH proves) and it is not available to everyone. I love Horween leather. Both of my engineer boots are made out of it and it is great stuff, but Horween is very liberal about letting pretty much anyone use their product. This is not bad, but on the other hand Shinki is extremely selective about who is allowed to buy and use their leather. As far as I am aware, Himel and Chapman are the only two jacket makers outside of Japan who are allowed to use it (DD gets it through Chapman). Other than them I believe Viberg and Ace Boots (in the Himel collab) were the only shoe/bootmakers allowed to use it to make footwear, though I think Wesco may have had a Japanese model with some Shinki in it if I recall correctly. In my opinion, Shinki is the most incredible leather in the world and I am definitely willing to pay the premium for it. I could describe why I love it so much, but that could take quite a while (though I will if requested).

Finally, the detailing. In this case, even the Japanese brands fall behind Chapman and Himel. The best stitchwork is in Japan, but the best detailing comes from these two. Now, I can't personally speak about Chapman jackets, but I know of many who boast about his jackets having that bit of extra detail that puts his jackets over the top. I have handled a few Himel jackets and can say that he does seem to put in some extra work that even the Japanese do not do. The time he takes to brush the hair on his grizzly jackets just right to have the seems be perfectly flat, the double stitching details on many of the jackets, and the fact that he uses 100% cotton thread and therefore stitches very slowly, leaving the surface looking perfectly pristine. Superfluous knows even more about these sort of details than I even do.

So in summary, these details really don't technically justify the cost increase or wait increase. However, having experienced other jacket makers, I can personally say with confidence that I have no plans on ever owning another Alexander or DD or ever ordering something from BK, Aero, Schott, Vanson, etc. I haven't had experience with any Chapman jackets, but I can personally see clear quality differences between jackets from Himel and RMC vs. most of the rest.

Again, these are my personal opinions and I am sure that I sound quite pretentious and elitist, especially considering how much this forum in particular favors brands like Aero. However, coming from a guy who has owned other brands, I must say I only feel satisfied now that I actually own what I believe is the absolute best, no matter what the cost (well, the Himel is on order, but I'm still excited ) Some people may disagree with me, but one problem I have with this forum is that a lot of times there is this weird contradiction going on where people think that brands like Himel, Freewheelers, and RMC are too expensive when they are already paying way more than what is practical for brands like Aero. We're already spending too much on this stuff, why not buy what is actually the best? I'm sorry, but in my personal experience there are very tangible differences between the brands of leather jackets I have owned and handled personally and while that does not justify the price difference for everyone, I do have a problem with people saying that there isn't really a difference when there actually is.

It's sort of like when people say that Gustin or something similar is as good as Iron Heart or The Flat Head/Real Japan Blues when clearly this is untrue and people are only trying to justify their saving of money. I know this because I used to do this with my Diamond Dave jacket. I said it was basically as good as the rest even when I knew it wasn't because I was trying to justify my purchase. However, eventually I knew I was in denial and sold it to buy my RMC.

This isn't to say that everyone who owns Aero/AL/BK jackets is in denial or that the jackets aren't amazing and they are definitely closer to Himel and RMC than Gustin is to Iron Heart and The Flat Head/RJB, but I do see posts on here that try to say that Aero and other makers are as good as Himel, Chapman, and RMC when this honestly is not the case.

Again, Superfluous could say all of this much better than me as he has possibly the widest range of jacket ownership experience on here.

Thanks for your insightful and comprehensive thoughts Dudewetherhead. You have convinced me there is a difference in quality when it comes to JC jackets and the rest. I guess it is if we feel the wait/cost is justified. I am not sure on that score, maybe, perhaps. Cheers

 

[tropicalbob]

I would think that the most important is how much one enjoys his/her jacket. Beyond exclusivity of a leather or number of stitches, fit and purpose appears more important in my eyes. There is anyway some inconsistency in justifying our purchases, anyway (e.g. i smiled reading about not knowing who made your Aero jacket personally, but raving about RMC). While at the same time, i see people selling jackets that looked great on them, in order to have the next best thing that may not turn out such a great fit. I love my Vanson and Aero and i admired some Goodwear i saw here, but not all.

I couldn't agree more. While I realize that one of the functions of this forum is to discuss matters of quality of materials and workmanship, I can't help shaking my aged head when articles that I remember appreciating for their functionality, good looks, and affordability are now discussed in the way that the Scarlet Pimpernel (as played by Leslie Howard) might discuss the butterfly effect of a proper cravat, and at prices that might endanger one's mortgage. I suppose it's only a matter of perspective.

 

[handymike]

John is an artist. I'm surprised his jackets don't cost more.

 

[bretron]

John is an artist. I'm surprised his jackets don't cost more.

I couldn't agree more. Especially considering he makes them all himself, unlike most of his competitors (including those that cost more )

 

[Monitor]

IMO, the extra cost goes to the research, skill, and labor, of a single man tailoring your requested garment. Not to a random machine-operator who hasn't personally spoken to you about your body style, wants, and needs. JC creates painstakingly accurate reproductions of WW2-era flight jackets, and other popular vintage civilian jackets.

I cannot agree with that. I don't know what JC does in person, but considering he gets most of his business online, at the very end of the day, both JC and a 'random machine-operator' will be working from a printed out sheet of paper with the same set of numbers and instructions you've given them over the email.

Same as how, I am sure, every Aero or Vanson on Schott machinist would probably do an even better job if you worked with them in person. Tailoring is a skill, not an art.

 

[Technonut]

I cannot agree with that. I don't know what JC does in person, but considering he gets most of his business online, at the very end of the day, both JC and a 'random machine-operator' will be working from a printed out sheet of paper with the same set of numbers and instructions you've given them over the email.

Same as how, I am sure, every Aero or Vanson on Schott machinist would probably do an even better job if you worked with them in person. Tailoring is a skill, not an art.

The 'personal touch' is done over a telephone conversation to discuss your selection right before the jacket is cut. I've read about selections being changed at that time, due to JC suggesting that a certain contract (in the case of military-type jackets) may not be right for your body-style. That personal touch may well make the difference between a VERY happy customer, and a not-so-happy customer.. I've had jackets from Aero arrive MUCH too large, despite my entered measurements. I am the individual who had to call them to get the sizing correct... After the fact.

 

[Atticus Finch]

A two year wait. Dang. Back in 2007, when I ordered my A-1, the wait was eight months...and I thought that was forever long. I toyed with ordering another Good Wear...probably an A-2 of some sort. But then I glanced at an actuarial table and decided I was probably already too old.

AF

 

[ButteMT61]

I cannot agree with that. I don't know what JC does in person, but considering he gets most of his business online, at the very end of the day, both JC and a 'random machine-operator' will be working from a printed out sheet of paper with the same set of numbers and instructions you've given them over the email.

Same as how, I am sure, every Aero or Vanson on Schott machinist would probably do an even better job if you worked with them in person. Tailoring is a skill, not an art.

And I cannot agree with that.
Making a pattern is an art - especially when reverse-engineering old jackets and making them as true to the originals as possible.
The research and work that JC puts in (and I'm sure others do too - I just know how he does things) to get things right, then work with buyers is unparalleled. He also travels and researches the hides and other materials to offer the best he can find. All this done by one guy. I even needed a fix over a year after mine was delivered. Didn't charge me for the fix or the shipping.
Always get answers to emails, even when not necessarily buying.
In the end, there are tons of great jackets out there - I've got some of my favorites second hand even. But I will go to bat all day to say that the wait and cost for something made by JC is well worth it.

 

[technovox]

I couldn't agree more. Especially considering he makes them all himself, unlike most of his competitors (including those that cost more )

Right. And how many custom leather jacket makers can you talk to personally when you place your order? I can only name four that actually pick up the phone when you call. I believe that makes a big difference in the fit and the satisfaction with the final product. Just my experience.

 

[technovox]

Take Shinki, for example - why do people so often brand it the best leather in the world? Because it does a very good job at emulating the look and feel of leathers those nice old, shopping mall priced jackets were made from. That's the whole point of Shinki.

You raise some very good points. I've often wondered why I'm spending all this money on a new jacket that is made to look old. But interestingly enough, I've had people who were in the design industry come up to me and ask about my Himel Shinki jacket. They could spot quality from across the room. That's never happened while I was wearing a shopping mall priced jacket. Inevitably, my experience has been that a product made with the best quality materials and craftsmanship almost always stands out.
Of course, I also have a couple of 50 year old cafe racers that looked like they were stomped to death and dragged behind a pick-up. Picked them up for $99. I love those too. Does one have to choose? Why not enjoy them both? If you can rock a mall jacket, then go for it. Or the Shinki. As long as it makes you happy and makes you look good.

 

[ausreenactor]

Emails are cheaper than phone calls..

Just wait for the Himel/GW collaboration A-2s on the Himel site. Then you will see an expensive A-2!

 

[ButteMT61]

The Good Wear/Himel jackets currently on the sale page are the same price as GW's regular pieces. Unless you have some inside info, I see nothing pointing to higher costs for the collaboration. Doesn't mean it can't happen, but you're just speculating at this point...

 

[ausreenactor]

The Good Wear/Himel jackets currently on the sale page are the same price as GW's regular pieces. Unless you have some inside info, I see nothing pointing to higher costs for the collaboration. Doesn't mean it can't happen, but you're just speculating at this point...

Speculating that a Himel A-2 would be expensive! Insanity....

 

[Seb Lucas]

John is an artist. I'm surprised his jackets don't cost more.

That's exactly right. However I'm not looking for a jacket made by an artist - I just want a decent product in a good hide made by a solid American or Australian company. Like walking into Sears and buying off the rack in 1950...

The boutique jacket makers are a whole different aesthetic experience that is perfectly legitimate but not what I am aiming for. These are more a custom made tribute item celebrating a man's skill. And I'm sure a great pleasure to wear and look at.

But at the end of the day I want a knockabout working item that can be lost and damaged without it being an issue and I am very happy with the quality of the classic Brooks, Sears, Brimaco, Fidelity, Schott, whatever jackets, many of which don't use "amazing" quality stuff but will last and serve for 30-50 years regardless, as EBay can attest.

 

[ProteinNerd]

I'm assuming people are prepared to pay more for a Good Wear for their unerring accuracy to the originals and the fact that its custom made to your measurements.

Sure you can get a great (really great) jacket from Aero or Vanson and tweak the length here and there and it will do everything a great jacket is supposed to do, but its not custom made to your specific measurements. Plus his niche is historical accuracy.

Like a lot of businesses, its not necessarily the materials that cost the most, its the R&D costs that you have to recoup. Imagine the amount of time and money JC would have spent finding all the original patterns and deconstructing them!

In my very brief emails with John so far regarding my Modoc (Californian Half-Belt) he brought up some specifics about their construction that you would never have known if you didn't pull apart an original. In all the talk of them on various websites, I've never heard anyone mention these either. Thats what you are paying for.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I would think that the most important is how much one enjoys his/her jacket. Beyond exclusivity of a leather or number of stitches, fit and purpose appears more important in my eyes. There is anyway some inconsistency in justifying our purchases, anyway (e.g. i smiled reading about not knowing who made your Aero jacket personally, but raving about RMC). While at the same time, i see people selling jackets that looked great on them, in order to have the next best thing that may not turn out such a great fit. I love my Vanson and Aero and i admired some Goodwear i saw here, but not all.

My point was that Aero jackets are known for being different in quality depending on who makes the jacket while RMC and Flat Head jackets are consistently well made even though you do not know who is making them. Obviously fit is majorly important, but I believe my RMC jacket fits the best out of any jacket I have owned.


I think the research element is a major factor. I know that Himel and JC spend a LOT of time making sure they get details right to make what they believe is the best jacket.

 

[Monitor]

I don't want anyone to get the impression I'm dissing either Shinki or JC (whom I know is the best of people) or Himel or whoever - but I still do believe that there's point when you simply stop getting your money's worth and start paying for an elitist exclusivity of a sort, and where that point is is the only truly subjective thing about all of this. And that's perfectly okay because all of the brands we talk about here have it.

Also, one mustn't forget that the finest GW is still priced lower than any Belstaff or Matchless, pardon my French, so if you do have a $1500 to spare on a jacket, I would say it's very clear whom you should trust your money to. Hint: not Belstaff or Matchless.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I don't want anyone to get the impression I'm dissing either Shinki or JC (whom I know is the best of people) or Himel or whoever - but I still do believe that there's point when you simply stop getting your money's worth and start paying for an elitist exclusivity of a sort, and where that point is is the only truly subjective thing about all of this. And that's perfectly okay because all of the brands we talk about here have it.

Also, one mustn't forget that the finest GW is still priced lower than any Belstaff or Matchless, pardon my French, so if you do have a $1500 to spare on a jacket, I would say it's very clear whom you should trust your money to. Hint: not Belstaff or Matchless.

No, you're definitely not dissing anyone at all and you are right, I would take any of the brands mentioned here over anything like Matchless, Belstaff, Ralph Lauren, Hermes, etc.

We are all crazy for buying any of this stuff anyway, haha

 

[plainsman]

That being said, tmitchel59 has a Goodwear Arcadia to die for. I watched his video of it number of times )))