Goodman Or Shaw?

[Doctor Strange]

Hey, that's my favorite Goodman material too!

In college, I was introduced to the Goodman/Christian recordings on the classic Columbia LP issue of that material "Solo Flight: This is the Story of Charlie Christian..." by a jazz-loving friend. It was, and remains, a revelation!

Nothing against BG's big band - they made some great records - but he's at his best in the combo recordings (including those amazing Billie Holiday records).

 

[Chas]

I gather that there are more than a couple of jazz "experts" here who seem to believe that nothing predating '36 can swing,

Hmmm. I don't recall that anyone here said anything like that.

and that Whiteman, of whom a far better man than I once said "Paul Whiteman was known as the King of Jazz, and no one as yet has come near carrying that title with more certainty and dignity." was a phoney.

I'm not a Paul Whiteman fan- in his defense I would note that he probably wanted to hire black musicians but couldn't; so the best he could do was play jazz-influenced pop. music, which is not my thing. I'm a jazz fan. The media called him the king of jazz. 'nuff said. Besides, Fletcher Henderson's band was recording the same time that Whiteman's was, and it was only the racial politics of the day that denied him the attention that Whiteman got.

Besides that, Jean Goldkette had a better band than Whiteman ever did.

There's plenty of pre-1936 music that swings.

Bop.

BOP?

That explains a lot!

So what have you got against Bop?

 

[LizzieMaine]

Of course, the thing with the Whiteman as King of Jazz label is that "jazz" in 1929 did *not* mean what "jazz" means today. In the mainstream language of the time, it was used to mean any popular syncopated dance music -- from Guy Lombardo to King Oliver. Within that definition, as the most prominent figure in the popular music of the day, Whiteman certainly was "the King of Jazz."

 

[vitanola]

Bop makes me nervous.

But then, so do the holes in Swiss Cheese.

I suppose I'm just an old fuddy-duddy, in that I tend to prefer pre-war (and especially pre-crash) music. Of course I would pooh-pooh whatever's fresh and new, and declare it crude and mean!

My preference for Goodman over Shaw is doubtless a product of my ability to abide the presence of a brass bass, and my great enjoyment of the work of Goodman's youth.

I notice from your postings that you tend to like post-war stuff, and some of the others here even waste their time listening to music that was never issued on 78's. De gustibus and all that.

I like Goldkette, and am only missing a few of his sides, but note that the general level of polish in the best of Whitemen's work eclipses that of the Detroiters.

As for the "Negro Paul Whiteman" ( for so he styled himself early on) I don't think that there is a Henderson disc that I don't enjoy.
Among my favorites are the Regal waxing of Prince of Wails (as Henri Gendron and His Strand Roof Orchestra!) The Columbia coupling of Sugar Foot Stomp/What-cha-call-em-blues, the Victor waxings of St Louis Shuffle and Hocus Pocus, and the ARC (Brunswick) recording of Radio Rhythm, which is as hard-swinging as the come, though it was committed to disc in 1931.


The Whiteman comment was directed to you, Chaz (as a gentle gibe to be sure), for you have pretty well excoriated his work in previous postings.

 

[vitanola]

Of course, the thing with the Whiteman as King of Jazz label is that "jazz" in 1929 did *not* mean what "jazz" means today. In the mainstream language of the time, it was used to mean any popular syncopated dance music -- from Guy Lombardo to King Oliver. Within that definition, as the most prominent figure in the popular music of the day, Whiteman certainly was "the King of Jazz."

In his 1973 autobiography "Music is My Mistress", Duke Ellington summed up his estimation of Paul Whiteman with the statement "Paul Whiteman was known as the King of Jazz, and no one as yet has come near carrying that title with more certainty and dignity."

Who am I to disagree?

 

[swinggal]

I do actually prefer Shaw to dance to by far, his band was tighter and more experimental. I just don't think you can really compare Shaw and Goodman. Too different.

 

[Rundquist]

I’m personally just talking from the standpoint of personal playing. Sure Goodman had some good musicians and made some good records. But as a player he just didn’t have that swing. He didn’t have juice. He played arpeggios. I’m not trying to convince anyone, just stating the way I hear it.

 

[Fletch]

You do have to give BG credit for 2 things that Shaw did not and could not do:

1) Benny started a swing band before it was a marketable trend. John Hammond was the kick in the pants for BG, but it was something he had wanted to do for a long time. This was 1934 - Artie at the time was stuck in radio bands as a lead alto saxman, a respected role, but very limiting - you couldn't lead a band or do much hot solo work. (See below).

2) BG was an inspired jazz improviser from a very young age (1927, when he was seventeen). Maybe the "all clarinet all the time" made that possible - Shaw began on sax and added clarinet only when his work demanded it - but Benny, when young especially, had a feeling for hot playing that his virtuosity did not overwhelm.

Commercial music had a specialist ethos at the time. Shaw was a lead alto player till 1936 or so, and lead players led sections, seldom played jazz. He was a fine jazz clarinetist, but not yet a great one, and getting little exposure on that horn. (Jazz alto playing was a strictly Black thing at the time, with occasional exceptions for Jimmy Dorsey.)

Fun factoid: In the late Shaw biography, Artie said that neither BG nor JD could lead a sax section worth a damn. Their alto tones were too harsh to him. Whenever they worked together, it was Artie on lead, BG or JD on the 2nd alto part and hot stuff.

 

[swinggal]

I like Woody Herman as much as these guys too. He was just as a amazing.

 

[Fletch]

Woody's clarineting is overlooked! He came to cut his solo spots short, because he had so many good jazz guys in the band, but he had a big brawny tone that was unmistakable. In addition, he was a really good, bluesy singer!

If you haven't heard the "pre Herd" or "Blues Band" of 1936-'42, that is where you'll hear Woody dooing the most playing and singing.

[youtube]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/C0xU4n0U-fI&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/C0xU4n0U-fI&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube] Vitaphone Melody Master, 1938

 

[Chas]

Bop makes me nervous.

It's supposed to. It's the movement led by the "Young Turks". The longhairs of the cultural establishment felt the same way about Bix, Satchmo and Benny, too.

I notice from your postings that you tend to like post-war stuff, and some of the others here even waste their time listening to music that was never issued on 78's. De gustibus and all that.

I don't think that any music is a waste of time. Unless you're talking about elevator or Doctor's office muzak that is imposed upon you. I also happen to love medieval music, particularly Hildegard of Bingen, and that was never released on 78, so far as I know.

The Whiteman comment was directed to you, Chaz (as a gentle gibe to be sure), for you have pretty well excoriated his work in previous postings.

Oh, so you were pushing my buttons. For the record, I'm not a Whiteman hater - as a musician and listener I just find him uninspiring, and the line about Whiteman's dignity and poise while carrying of the title comes from Duke Ellington. I agree that PW carried the title with dignity, but that doesn't mean he deserved the title. Louis Armstrong does.

Re: Woody Herman. I'm a huge fan; together with Charlie Barnet I think that (after Ellington and Basie) they had the most swinging jazz repetoires around.

Re: Fletch's link. Thanks for that, man. I'm ordering that book today.

 

[swinggal]

Nice bit of Shag at the ned of that clip. I love dancing Shag I play a lot of Woody when I DJ. His version of Woodchopper's Ball is great. Also gotta love;

- Herman at the Sherman
- Down Under (a tribute he did for Australia - yay!)
- Junkin'
- Must be Jelly

 

[Rundquist]

Re: Fletch's link. Thanks for that, man. I'm ordering that book today.

Shaw was an interesting character. He also said that BG was as dumb as a post, almost an idiot savant. All he could do in life was play the clarinet. That might have something to do with why I feel that he lacked soul in his playing.

 

[vitanola]

It's supposed to. It's the movement led by the "Young Turks". The longhairs of the cultural establishment felt the same way about Bix, Satchmo and Benny, too.

As they felt about May Irwin, James Reese Europe and the ODJB, no doubt.

I don't think that any music is a waste of time. Unless you're talking about elevator or Doctor's office muzak that is imposed upon you.

I was joking about the "wast of time"! Except of course for what today passes as Muzak- the uninterrupted Rock-n-Roll that is now the sould track for all of our lives, blaring forth from every speaker in each store and restauraunt. I have a couple hundred MUZAK transcriptions and tapes dating form the 1950's, and find the music to be oddly soothing. Familiar melodies of the 'teens, 'twenties and 'thirites played with precision and a preponderance of reeds and strings. Not as annoying, I think as the "Beautiful Music" of the 1960's and 1970's (Frank Chacksfield, Mantovani, 101 Strings, Horst Jankowski) though even that schlag has its place, I suppose.

I also happen to love medieval music, particularly Hildegard of Bingen, and that was never released on 78, so far as I know.

Actually, some of her short pieces were issued on The Gramophone Shop's L'Anthologie Sonore. I believe that the Dollmetsch family also participated in some recordings of her music for Edison Bell and later Columbia.

Oh, so you were pushing my buttons. For the record, I'm not a Whiteman hater - as a musician and listener I just find him uninspiring, and the line about Whiteman's dignity and poise while carrying of the title comes from Duke Ellington. I agree that PW carried the title with dignity, but that doesn't mean he deserved the title. Louis Armstrong does.

I didn't seriously mean to "push your buttons", Chas., merely intending a gentle ribbing. I do apologise if my posting came across as baldly sarcastic.
For the record, some of Whiteman's work is a bit bland, but the music always bespeaks quality. I even enjoy the "florid opening" of the Grofe arrangement of "Sweet Sue".

Re: Woody Herman. I'm a huge fan; together with Charlie Barnet I think that (after Ellington and Basie) they had the most swinging jazz repetoires around.

Love the "Band that Plays the Blues". The herds, not so much, though their musicianship is superb. I guess that it is just too modern for me.
.

 

[Chas]

@ Vitanola: No worries, man. We're cool. Stay frosty.

 

[The Reno Kid]

Goodman. His music is always fun and rarely fails to entertain. I'm not qualified to judge who was the better clarinetist in technical terms but Goodman is the one I enjoy more.

I love Artie Shaw's music but I've always had a problem with his attitude. In interviews I've seen, he was very hard on anyone who wasn't sufficiently purist in their approach to music. He was especially tough with Glenn Miller, who he didn't consider a "swing" musician at all.

For me, jazz lost its appeal when the musicians began playing more for other musicians and less for the audience. Bebop and most of the succeeding incarnations of jazz leave me completely cold. I appreciate that Miles Davis was a supremely talented musician for example, but his music just doesn't move me.

On the other hand, Artie Shaw definitely wins points for leading the band on the "Burns and Allen" show (this is a radio forum, after all). On balance though, it's Goodman for me.

 

[Chas]

There's so much written about Shaw's character and temperment that it goes unremarked upon that other bandleaders had less than desireable qualities as well. It is largely due to the relationship that he had with the press. The press adored Goodman and never really understood Shaw.

Benny Goodman was notorious for what was called "The B-G Ray" which was a prolonged episode of "stink eye" directed at a musician who he felt was not doing as he liked. One musician recalled that Goodman made a backhanded remark about something he was doing - "you must have learned that playing with Shaw." the musician replied "yeah? He can outswing you any day".

Tommy Dorsey had a terrible temper; nobody in the swing era was more misnamed than he was - he was no "sentimental gentleman".

Duke Ellington had a considerable ego; and a number of compositions he published were more Billy Strayhorn than it was him.

 

[The Wolf]

My gut reaction was Goodman but when I tried to figure it out logically I had a hard time. I like them both a lot and I have reasons to choose either (many explained here). However When I stopped thinking about it my subconscious goes back to Goodman.

Sincerely,
The Wolf

 

[Blackjack]

Have to agree with the Wolf, in the end it's Goodman

 

[StetsonHomburg]

I'd have to go with Artie Shaw.... I am not that
familiar with either of there music but I have heard
a couple songs from each.