Goodman Or Shaw?

[Chas]

Music fans felt quite passionate about this debate. High School kids even used to argue over who had the best rhythm section, the same way that sports fans argue about which team has the best defense.

 

[57plymouth]

Goodman, by a mile.

 

[Shangas]

Benny Goodman!!

 

[BinkieBaumont]

"I am sentimentally attached to the radio Broadcasts of Artie shaw from fashionable Manhattan restaurants in the late 1930's, which I discovered in the early 1980's, the charm of the sweet music, the murmur of the couples dining, the sound of popping Champagne corks and the clatter of knives and forks on fine china plates...................................."

 

[Doctor Strange]

Goodman. I have vast respect for Shaw, but I listen to loads more Goodman.

 

[zetwal]

High School kids even used to argue over who had the best rhythm section, the same way that sports fans argue about which team has the best defense.

There's an interesting critical discussion of the Goodman rhythm section in the following book.

The Swing Era
The Development of Jazz, 1930-1945
Gunther Schuller

 

[dhermann1]

While Goodman may be the better instrumentalist per se, I've always enjoyed Shaw's music more.

 

[swinggal]

As a swing/jazz DJ, lover of jazz and swing dancer of 12 years I can't vote between either.They both bring their own styles to the table (and the dance floor).

The music always came first to Artie Shaw and he was self taught. He disliked 'jitterbuggers' and never wrote music for them or liked playing for them. He didn't care for fans and commercialism and saw anything that was non-musical as a distraction that threatened to compromise his musical style. People say he was not as 'hot' or jazzy as Goodman but I disagree. Listen to 'Man from Mars' sometime!! He had a rich tone and style that was never beaten. Shaw used to say himself, "Goodman plays clarinet - I play music." There are many Shaw songs that I DJ regularly that fill a dance floor - even though they aren't as well known as Goodman's. Shaw was called the "King of Clarinet' buy his fans and Goodman the 'King of Swing'.

Goodman was different in that his life was clarinet - Shaw didn't take that attitude at all. He was a talented musician from a very early age and was trained as a classical clarinetist. Goodman's band had a huge following among teenage Jitterbuggers/Lindy Hoppers at the time so they in turn acknowledged this and cut loose with the hot music that young people loved. Goodman's style matched the taste of teens more than any other white swing band of the time and his age (26) would have had a lot to do with that. He didn't just play dance music though, he played SWING jazz with awesome arrangements and charts with heaps of room for impro.

So nope...can't vote. They are too different I play these songs regularly when I and love them all and so do dancers. I also have a tonne of their songs i like just fro listening too.

Just Kickin' Around - Artie Shaw
Diga Diga Doo - Artie Shaw
Man from Mars - Artie Shaw

King Porter Stomp - Benny Goodman
All the cats join in - Benny Goodman
Swingmatism - Benny Goodman

 

[Mr. 'H']

Artie Shaw is much more fun for me in general... but Goodman doing Moonglow is tops.

 

[Chas]

I guess I could have opened up the field as well by adding

• Buddy DeFranco
• Woody Herman
• Barney Bigard
• Jimmy Noone
• Russell Procope

 

[MisterCairo]

As I was spoiled for choice, I flipped a coin. Heads for Goodman...

 

[Rundquist]

Goodman was a longhair that couldn't swing to save his life. I mean that. Artie Shaw.

 

[J. M. Stovall]

Both are great, but to me Goodman was a "top 40" station and Shaw was the real deal.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I prefer Goodman as an instrumentalist -- but I like Shaw's band, at least the 1938-39 version, better than any Goodman aggregation. When Artie tried to get arty, though, he lost me.

 

[dhermann1]

Lizzie: Have you ever heard Shaw's 1954 album with Mel Torme? Delicious stuff.

 

[vitanola]

Goodman was a longhair that couldn't swing to save his life. I mean that. Artie Shaw.

Oh yeah?

'DEED I DO (Ben Pollack and his Park Central Orchestra. Note the tasty clarinet chorus by a sixteen-year old Goodman at 2:35
ROOM 1411

http://youtu.be/NAcclMpFSVk

MUSKRAT SCRAMBLE

http://youtu.be/MFH0-U8aN-8

The young Goodman evan makes the TED LEWIS organisation swing!

AUNT HAGAR'S BLUES

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b3Rmz5-mD4

A bit later, introducing an new singing talent:

YOUR MOTHER'S SON-IN-LAW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loUK32s-AXg

an evenascent little dance number:

GOODY GOODY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4GISdPn8nQ

Gosh, Goodman could even add a bit of heat to tome of the more insipid Ben Selvin sides
of the early 'Thirties.

I'M IN THE MARKET FOR YOU (As the Columbia Photo-Players) Take care if playing this side, for up until
1:46 it's so sweet that one should inject a couple hundred extra units of insulin just to be on the safe side!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ3pGJXjjSI

These are just a few little snips of items that could be easily found on Youtube.

If you care to come to visit in Michigan, we can, perhaps, send a few boxes of needles to their
end going through stacks of Goodman and Shaw discs.

I must say that I do like the Gramercy Five sides, and have a weakness for the despised "New Music"
records, but still prefer Goodman.

 

[Chas]

oops. sorry. double post

 

[Chas]

I'd have to agree w/ Rundquist & J. M. S.; Shaw could outswing Goodman on an off day. He wore many more hats than Goodman as well - songwriting, arranging. He was also perfectly comfortable with Bop. A superior all-around musician. He is the musician's musician.

I also agree with LizzieMaine; the 38/39 Band - was, IMHO, a far tighter and swinging band than the Goodman Orch's. I rate them just behind Basie's 37-41 Orch's for the top swing bands ever.

Personally, I think that the best Goodman stuff was the small groups espec. with Charlie Christian.

 

[vitanola]

I'd have to agree w/ Rundquist & J. M. S.; Shaw could outswing Goodman on an off day. He wore many more hats than Goodman as well - songwriting, arranging. He was also perfectly comfortable with Bop. A superior all-around musician. He is the musician's musician.

I also agree with LizzieMaine; the 38/39 Band - was, IMHO, a far tighter and swinging band than the Goodman Orch's. I rate them just behind Basie's 37-41 Orch's for the top swing bands ever.

Personally, I think that the best Goodman stuff was the small groups espec. with Charlie Christian.

Bop.

BOP?

That explains a lot!

You can take all of the Blue Note, Signature, and most of the Asch and Black and White discs. Viva-tonal Columbia, Paramount, Gennett Electrobeam and Orthophonic platters for mine!


By the way, a few years ago I picked up about 50 dealer stock copies of the Coleman Hawkins Orchestra playing "Jumpy Stumpy" along with a pick-up truck load of shellac left over from various "Record Finder" auctions. Most copies that I've seen at auction over past years have been dealer stock, probably originating with Record Finder. I wonder whether ANY copies were sold back in the '40's.


I gather that there are more than a couple of jazz "experts" here who seem to believe that nothing predating '36 can swing, and that Whiteman, of whom a far better man than I once said "Paul Whiteman was known as the King of Jazz, and no one as yet has come near carrying that title with more certainty and dignity." was a phoney.

Pardon me whilst I dig out my cracked (sob) copy of Champion 16587.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Personally, I think that the best Goodman stuff was the small groups espec. with Charlie Christian.

The first records I ever bought were a Columbia 78rpm album set of the Goodman sextet, featuring Charlie Christian -- which ought to be required listening in any music-appreciation class.