Goatskin vs Horsehide

[Heiko]

Hello everyone:

I have been researching the differences between goat and horse hides because I am looking at different companies like Aero and Lost Worlds.

In my searches I have seen that some horsehide has a beautiful rich coppery brown that can sometimes be uneven while the goatskins are often much more uniform and less nuanced in colour. I have also found that goatskin is very durable and that it generally doesn't develop a rich patina. On the other hand, horsehide sometimes seems to develop these deep wrinkles that make the products look very distressed and somewhat ratty.

Are my novice observations accurate, and, if so, is the allure of horsehide more about historicity than functionality? They also seem so stiff early on, and I am unsure how that is an advantage. Can that coppery tone of horsehide be found with goatskin?

 

[Heiko]

I apologize if this has been discussed before, I have weak searching skills.

 

[Fanch]

Based on my somewhat limited experience, I think that what you just said sounds reasonably accurate. Thus far, none of my goatskin jackets have changed at all from the day that I bought them, but my black vintage FQHH Aero Highwayman that is only a few weeks old is already changing appearance and softening. Since you are in the UK, I suggest that you contact Aero and ask then to send you samples of goat and HH for observation and comparison. Ask specifically for their russet goat sample. I bought an Aero A-2 in russet goatskin a few years ago. It is thicker than the goatskin on my Cooper and G&B jackets. Again, none of my goatskin jackets have aged on the outside though, including the Aero.

 

[Silverpoint]

Fanch- would you say that this lack of aging on the goat is because it holds onto the stain better, which would work against the development of a rich patina?

 

[JanSolo]

All of the aspects discussed above apply to both leathers. The method of tanning and the processing afterwards can be even more important than the properties of the bare skins.

Veg tanned goat with a light spray finish ages beautifully and will develop a rich patina over time. Chrome tanned, drum dyed and heavily spray finished hh (the stuff that Gibson& Barnes use) will not age at all because it's been covered and soaked with pigment.

This is what thick veg goat can look like. (Note the mottled finish of the spray finish):

Seal spray finish HH, drum dyed, veg tanned, chrome re-tanned, very even (almost boring) surface:

Current military grade chrome tanned, drum dyed, thickly spray finished goatskin for G1 jackets. Hard to imagine this will ever properly age (although it looks nice):

Drum dyed chrome tanned HH, NO surface finish, except for a very light clear aniline coat. A buttery soft and delicate leather that has to treated with care.

As you can see the options are endless...there's no " horse is like this, goat is like that". I agree with the others: GET SAMPLES!! And don't forget to ask Aero for FQHH in all colours and also make sure to ask for some heavy weight steerhide.

 

[Fanch]

I agree with what Jan said. When you receive the samples, pose the questions with Aero that you just brought up here. I believe though that goat has a reputation for being more resilient over a long period of hard use than horse, at least as a rule of thumb.

 

[Heiko]

I greatly appreciate all your time and patience in explaining the differences Fanch and Jansolo. JanSolo's post has been really helpful in dispelling some of the misconceptions I had, so I thank you very much. Both of you are very kind.

One question still, how does Aero horse hide crease? Does it look too weathered? I saw a few examples of a longer horsehide, I think a Cheyenne Aero where the creasing around the buttons made the coat look ratty rather than gracefully aged. Is this typical? I will try to find the images to show later.

I am not particular to goat or horse, but I am very fond of this sort of colour and texture:

Ignoring the pajama pants, what kind of skin is that? Is it front quarter horse hide (FQHH)? Can I get that colouration in a goatskin?

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Here's a pic of my Aero Highwayman (Heavy FQHH)..about a year or so old...

..And after around 8 or 9 years old. Some of us call it gaining charactor rather than ratty. However..it may not be for you.

 

[JanSolo]

That's Horween Front Quarter Chromexcell horsehide, Aero's trademark leather. No, goat can never look like that. Total different tanning (veg tanned, chrome re-tanned) and processing (hot stuffing with wax tallow and oil) and curing.

Creasing? You mean scratches? Those disappear with a hot, damp flanel and some conditioner. FQHH has a very open surface with no surface coating. It scratches easily but those "scratches" are just tiny distortions in the stuffed surface. Take you finger, apply some pressure and gently rub over a scratch....gone within seconds!

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Same Aero FQHH on my new Bootlegger just taken out of the box.

 

[Sloan1874]

That's Horween Front Quarter Chromexcell horsehide, Aero's trademark leather. No, goat can never look like that. Total different tanning (veg tanned, chrome re-tanned) and processing (hot stuffing with wax tallow and oil) and curing.

Creasing? You mean scratches? Those disappear with a hot, damp flanel and some conditioner. FQHH has a very open surface with no surface coating. It scratches easily but those "scratches" are just tiny distortions in the stuffed surface. Take you finger, apply some pressure and gently rub over a scratch....gone within seconds!

Got to say, my eyes widened the first time I scratched the surface. but as you say, I just rubbed with my thumb and it fades into the patina. All these little marks and bumps and scratches just merge and add to the overall look'.

 

[JanSolo]

Heiko, as Hoosierdaddy's pics prove the aging and the patina on FQHH is part of the magic of an Aero jacket.

 

[Heiko]

I was hoping to find pictures of what I am describing so as to rule out the possibility that patina or "character" is something I do not like. I am still looking for the pictures though--around the buttons there was a sort of deep creasing and wrinkling that looked less like patina and more like tears.

I am quite confident I do like patina, I don't mind scratches here and there as well as colour variation.

I do like this coat Jan, do you still have it? Might it be too big for a man with a slight frame?

I would like a longer coat in the FQHH but am unsure as to whether a long half belt or Cheyenne would be nice. Do you have any opinions about this model?

 

[Heiko]

Heiko, as Hoosierdaddy's pics prove the aging and the patina on FQHH is part of the magic of an Aero jacket.

Hoosierdaddy's pics look quite nice, if that is patina then I am all for it.

 

[Fanch]

Hoosierdaddy's pics look quite nice, if that is patina then I am all for it.

Heiko, why not consider Aero's Teamster, which appears to be similar to their Long Half Belt but with buttons instead of zippers, and with only two outside hand warmer pockets and buttoned cuffs. Overall a very clean look. IMO could be worn to work with shirt, tie, and slacks, or dressed down with jeans. My next Aero jacket, currently on order.

 

[Heiko]

Wow, Fanch! You have many Aero jackets.

I do like your idea, and I was looking into examples:

I have a build much like the gentleman above and this coat does appear quite bulky.

Also, what colour is the gentleman in the picture wearing? I do not like that colour, but I do like the reddish brown. When I make my order what colour should I mention?

I know many questions, but these jackets aren't cheap--I want to get it right the first time. I really am amazed by all the kind help!

 

[Fanch]

Hoosierdaddy's pics look quite nice, if that is patina then I am all for it.

Yep, HoosierDaddy's jackets are aging better than he is (and me) heh, heh, heh :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Sloan1874]

The Teamster and LHB are fairly substantial jackets - they do good a job of keeping out the elements. That looks like a seal brown to me. Aero's FQHH has a far greater russet/copper undertone. The more knocks it gets, the more this is brought up. The arms gone from a deep chocolate to a lighter coppery tone, as have the shoulders (that's what a well-filled rucksack will do you for you) but the rest is catching up. I doubt the photos we see on the FL do any of these jackets justice, because the depth of the colour is something you have to see first hand.

 

[Azegami]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAAAAAADA/_vbtSYvmOQg/s800/Cossack Front.jpg
What model is this?

 

[Fanch]

Wow, Fanch! You have many Aero jackets.

I do like your idea, and I was looking into examples:

I have a build much like the gentleman above and this coat does appear quite bulky.

Also, what colour is the gentleman in the picture wearing? I do not like that colour, but I do like the reddish brown. When I make my order what colour should I mention?

I know many questions, but these jackets aren't cheap--I want to get it right the first time. I really am amazed by all the kind help!

Heiko, if your build is similar to the gentleman's build above, you could probably order a sack cloth and look OK. The picture above is, as I recall, a heavily modified, shorter Teamster in brown goatskin. Normally, the Teamster does not have a breast pocket as shown on the above jacket, which IMO adversely affects an otherwise clean look. Take a look at wdw's black vintage FQHH that has a back length of 28.5 inches.
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/show...eamster-Pics&p=1473409&highlight=#post1473409

Also look at Dav's modified Teamster (no bi-swing back and no side straps) that has a back length of 29 inches.
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?66875-Plain-Teamster&highlight=aero+teamster

By looking carefully at both of those threads, you can get a good overall impression of the Teamster, and I modeled my Teamster currently on order largely from both of their jackets. I also used Sloan's LHB as a model too, and wdw, Dav, and Sloan were quite helpful to me through the process, as well as HD, who has forgotten more about all of this than most of us will ever know.