Gibson & Barnes M422a, Us Wings $195

[Lord Flashheart]

Hi Fanch,
thanks for all your imput and assistance with the G & B dialemma. This might be a bit of a stupid question but with the pit to pit measurement, is as simple as doubling that measurement to get the total chest circumfrence measurement? The reason I ask is because I have a Schotts Cafe Racer (660) which fits me perfectly in the chest and shoulders so I was thinking of measuring that and ordering the G & B M422a as per those measurements?

Garry

 

[Fanch]

Garry, I would proceed with great caution since you live in Australia. I just shipped a jacket back to G&B today UPS ground from Dallas to San Diego, and my cost was just over $30.00 insured. If your sizing is incorrect, you would pay a bundle to rid yourself of a jacket that doesn't fit properly. You said earlier that G&B gave you dimensions for their 42T and 44T M422a jackets size 42T - chest 54" and size 44T - chest 56" respectively. I can tell you that a historic Mark 31 A-2 in 42T has pit to pit of 25.5" that would be a chest of 51"which makes it difficult for me to think that there would be that degree of discrepancy between the historic A-2 and Model 422a chest measurements. When I look into my crystal ball, I see a trip for you to San Diego to determine how you should proceed.

 

[Deacon211]

Hey Garry,

If the G+B sizing is going to be a headache, perhaps they are not for you?

Nothing against them, but with the sizing issue and your shipping obstacles, some of the convenience of G+B's return policy is diminished.

Isn't a Bill Kelso about the same price as a G+B M422? 700-800USD? That might be another route to consider as well. On the other end, US Wings might be worth a reconsider, depending on how they are reviewed to fit.

Just some thoughts.

Deacon

 

[ButteMT61]

Seems the G&B have carved out the modern American pilot body in their lineup. I was there a couple years back, and I know there's a market there, but they aren't cranking out trim fitting jackets for the most part. If you've a wiry or "normal" frame, I'd prolly look elsewhere.

 

[Fanch]

The historic A-2 models are definitely more trim fitting than most others in their lineup. I wanted to try on a Navy 422a but did not see one in my size to try on.

 

[Peacoat]

Hi Fanch,
thanks for all your imput and assistance with the G & B dialemma. This might be a bit of a stupid question but with the pit to pit measurement, is as simple as doubling that measurement to get the total chest circumfrence measurement?Garry

It is more complicated than that. The first thing we can't depend on is the stated chest size on these jackets bought online. Nor can we depend on measurements given by the sellers when they say the chest is 42" in circumference, or some other similar statement. To know exactly how the jacket will fit, we all need to speak the same language.

To accomplish this, I have found the p2p measurement is the most objective method of determining proper fit in the chest area. If one is of standard proportions, a properly fitted chest should fit in other areas as well.

I'm not going to go through all of the detail of measuring the p2p as it is covered in my stickie, "Peacoat Dating" at the top of the Outerwear section. The section on fitting is toward the end. Instead of using a factor of two for the peacoats, with leather jackets, the factor seems to be four with midweight leather jackets.

To give an example of a jacket we are all familiar with, I just measured my Goodwear Poughkeepsie A-2. The jacket is tagged as a 46. This jacket gives me a trim fit (someone with a 46" chest would not be able to wear it). My chest measures 42" (the actual measured chest is what we use--not suit size, even though they are frequently the same). The jacket measures 23.5" p2p (stretch the jacket and then let it relax). Using the instructions in the Dating guide, we multiply 23 x 2 = 46 and subtract the factor of 4 from 46. We get 42, which is the actual chest size of my Goodwear A-2 with a trim fit. It is not the inner or outer circumference of the jacket. The factor of four works for midweight horse and cow. Heavier (thicker) hides require a different factor number.

My Johnson Leathers Heavy cow measures 24" p2p (tagged as a size 46). It has the same fit as the Goodwear, but the leather is much thicker. My mid weight Johnson leathers jacket also measures 24" p2p (tagged as a size 44), but it has an insulating liner which has the same effect on fit as a thicker leather. So, it appears we need a factor of six when thick leather is used or an insulted liner is in the jacket.

Although I have 11 other leather jackets, I used these three as they all fit the same in the chest. I would characterize the fit as close or snug, but not restricting or confining. In other words, if I put a thin sweater or vest on underneath the jackets, I could certainly feel the difference as the jackets would fit tighter against the chest.

If the leathers are of similar weight, your Schott would be a good starting point, assuming G&B would accommodate you. Read the fitting section in the dating guide to determine how to measure the p2p and for a slightly more detailed explanation. PC

Edit Note: Another jacket that many here are familiar with is the Aero Highwayman. I had forgotten about it being the same fit as the other three, so I measured it as well. The p2p s 24, just like the others. The lining is the alpaca, which is a thin lining.

 

[kojax]

i am lucky any a2 jacket i get is a size 38 even my g1 jacket size 38 nice and easy

 

[Seb Lucas]

Garry I have that 660 Schott too. Remember it's a very slim cut. The Large pit to pit is just on 22 inches.

 

[Big J]

Bringing an old thread back to life, but for some G&B USN G-1 sizes, I have these from customer service.

48R Pit to pit= 30 inches, length including knit= 28 inches.
46R Pit to pit= 29 inches, length including knit= 27.75 inches.
44R Pit to pit= 28 inches, length including knit= 25.5 inches.

I've heard very good things about the quality of the goat and the construction, so I'm really interested, but sizing seems all over the place.
All my issue size 48 G-1's are about 4 inches shorter and trimmer pit to pit than G&B's size 48.

 

[morrison2951]

G&B runs at least a size larger- no doubt about it.

I'm an off the rack 44 and would consider nothing larger than a 42 were I to be shopping for a G&B. A while back I scored a good deal on a one-of-a kind rare G&B deerskin A-2 size 46 that I just could not resist despite its size being too big, but after the HWT it's still alittle big, but better fitting and I wouldn't trade it for the world! Deerskin is just so soft and supple, yet strong!:eusa_clap

 

[Big J]

Well, as Deacon and several others have speculated, it does indeed seem that G&B has changed it's patterns (not merely a label size change) to make it's jackets baggier. This is the communication I received from G&B today;

'Our jackets are cut on the more relaxed side, as opposed to the traditional fitted military versions. Also, general sizing has fashionably changed since the days the military issued jackets were made.'

For 'cut on the more relaxed side', read 'baggy'.
For 'traditional fitted military versions', read 'correct jackets'.
For 'general sizing has fashionably changed', read 'customers are fat slobs who can't squeeze their massive, blubbery guts into proper G-1's'.

If you're one of these fat slobs, you need a bloody good slap for forcing G&B to mess with a classic to the point where anyone of normal body proportions can't wear it.

 

[Gromulus]

Bringing an old thread back to life, but for some G&B USN G-1 sizes, I have these from customer service.

48R Pit to pit= 30 inches, length including knit= 28 inches.
46R Pit to pit= 29 inches, length including knit= 27.75 inches.
44R Pit to pit= 28 inches, length including knit= 25.5 inches.

I've heard very good things about the quality of the goat and the construction, so I'm really interested, but sizing seems all over the place.
All my issue size 48 G-1's are about 4 inches shorter and trimmer pit to pit than G&B's size 48.

This now makes sense to me. I own two Flight Suits (pre- Gibson & Barnes name) A2 jackets - a size 44 in HH and a 46S in goat. Both have a decent fit with the 44 HH being snug over a light shirt and the 46S having some room for layering.

Last year I bought a size 44 Skyliner jacket (G&B) on eBay and it was huge! I ended up giving it to my brother-in-law.

Now for reference I am 5'7"/ 215# with a 47" chest, 33" waist, and 18" upper arm. (former competitive bodybuilder). It is very obvious that G&B changed their sizing sometime over the past several years to accommodate the typical out-of-shape modern "physique".

I advise anyone looking for a more traditional fit to search for a used "Flight Suits" era model.

 

[Deacon211]

The Flight Suits model was a beautiful cut. It's really a shame they fattened up the pattern.

I guess I just don't understand why they just didn't keep the Civil versions in the generous cut and leave the regular style in the traditional cut. It seemed that they could cater to both markets that way.

 

[Big J]

The Flight Suits model was a beautiful cut. It's really a shame they fattened up the pattern.

I guess I just don't understand why they just didn't keep the Civil versions in the generous cut and leave the regular style in the traditional cut. It seemed that they could cater to both markets that way.

Yep, it is baffling. Why bother to make a 'civilian' version if you're going to fatten up the 'Navy' version? If I wanted a baggy mall jacket, I could get one for $100. I guess G&B are making the best quality 'mall jacket' in the world right now. I just mailed them to ask them if they didn't think it would be a good idea to indicate on the web-page that these jackets don't have a correct G-1 cut, so as to avoid endless sizing questions and returns from people who know how they should fit.

I think that because I have to constantly fight my weight and watch my diet so that I can keep a decent enough body shape to wear my flight jackets and other clothes, this is really bugging me. Don't lazy fat slobs realize that they look nothing like Maverick in their baggy G-1's?

 

[nick123]

Sad they didn't stay true to their patterns. I can live with the baginess in the body. That's how their jackets are. But they seemed to have changed the patterns of their upper arms/shoulders, which throws the whole look off.

 

[Deacon211]

Yeah, Big J I had to work my behind off literally in the military to stay under the max weight limit for years. Why would I want a jacket that makes me look fatter?

Nick, that's the thing that bothers me too. It fits like a High School Varsity jacket now, which has its own look. But it really takes the shape out of the G-1.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Big J]

I've seen your photos Deacon, you're no where fat enough to fill a G&B G-1 your tag size the way they are cut now, and that's something to be proud of!

It was easier for me to keep my weight under control when I was in my 20's, but now I have to really work at it in small ways every day, but I do it because I know I look better. So this is kind of why I don't get that someone would care enough to buy a high quality jacket, but not care about letting themselves go. It just seems like a ridiculous contradiction to me.

 

[xOUTLAWx]

Well, as Deacon and several others have speculated, it does indeed seem that G&B has changed it's patterns (not merely a label size change) to make it's jackets baggier. This is the communication I received from G&B today;

'Our jackets are cut on the more relaxed side, as opposed to the traditional fitted military versions. Also, general sizing has fashionably changed since the days the military issued jackets were made.'

For 'cut on the more relaxed side', read 'baggy'.
For 'traditional fitted military versions', read 'correct jackets'.
For 'general sizing has fashionably changed', read 'customers are fat slobs who can't squeeze their massive, blubbery guts into proper G-1's'.

If you're one of these fat slobs, you need a bloody good slap for forcing G&B to mess with a classic to the point where anyone of normal body proportions can't wear it.

Brutal but true. Schott refer to their full cut as the ''modern american'' updated fit.