German & Austrian Hutmachers

[mayserwegener]

That's a really nice hat. What does "Flexible" mean? Is it crushable then?

What makes the age difference between our hats?

JHS used "Flexible" for both Soft and Stiff Felt Hats. Not sure the reason other than marketing.

I base the dating on JHS Soft Felts that I know are from a specific time. For example they were made after German occupation so JHS Soft Hats from that time period have the same paper label types. Also components and construction changed over the years so in that case it's an educated guess. Marks like "Flexible" & "Standard" came in to use in the early 1920s post WWI. There is a lot information in the JHS page on my website. You are looking at a time period of ~ 1921 to ~ 1942.

J. Hückel´s Söhne Soft Felts Post WWI Paper Label Types

https://germanaustrianhats.invision...tfabrik-weilheim/?do=findComment&comment=2851

 

[mayserwegener]

Nice one: Congrats!
I would think, it's post WWII (70s maybe?) - so could it be, it's not the original Wilke GUBEN but
the manufacturer in the West Germany (Köln?) holding the rights on the Wilke name!?
C.G.Wilke Hutfabrik Guben was transfered into the VEB Hutwerke Guben in the early 50s.
Maybe Steve @mayserwegener knows exactly...

Matt, I know from at least 1954 (possibly earlier) Friedrich W. Schneider Köln was using the "Wilke" brand but not sure for how long. My searches came up blank but if I had to guess they had it to the end. It's hard to say who made this latest example for FWS but I think your dating is accurate.

F.W.S. advertisement (in a 1954 German Hat Exhibition booklet I have photo archived) that mentions the Wilke mark.

 

[Wangenheim]

JHS used "Flexible" for both Soft and Stiff Felt Hats. Not sure the reason other than marketing.

I base the dating on JHS Soft Felts that I know are from a specific time. For example they were made after German occupation so JHS Soft Hats from that time period have the same paper label types. Also components and construction changed over the years so in that case it's an educated guess. Marks like "Flexible" & "Standard" came in to use in the early 1920s post WWI. There is a lot information in the JHS page on my website. You are looking at a time period of ~ 1921 to ~ 1942.

J. Hückel´s Söhne Soft Felts Post WWI Paper Label Types

https://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/topic/6-johann-hückel´s-söhne-hückel-hutfabrik-weilheim/?do=findComment&comment=2851

Ah, very nice, so this would be a Type 2. But as I read this, I wonder, if we could limit the label-date to post 1939 because of the end of Czechoslovakia. On the other hand, Type 3 explicitly says Made in Germany, which begs the question, why there's an intermediate label-type! I guess that's why you say "medium confidence" there.

Because we would expect Czechoslovakia OR Germany (and some k.u.k. before, which obviously doesn't appear explicitly). Or is this maybe a label, that was used after 1939 until they got the paper work done to "advertise" as Made in Germany? Because at first the Czech part of Czechoslovakia was only "under German protection" and not part of Germany. I can't figure out historically if there was a lag there, because this all happend very quickly on the 14th and 15th of march and I don't know if there is a difference between "under German protection" and "Reichsprotektorat". But the second sounds like a bureaucratically advanced thing. So maybe there is a short time, when things were unclear and so the labels didn't mention any state.

This is a desired effect and doesn't have anything to do with the quality of the felt.

Of course this is a desired effect. They wouldn't give their product the (internal) name after a non-desired fault. I just wanted to say, that for a deliberatly rough surface it's too smooth for my taste. That's why I opted for the color-explanation. But this is of course just a guess.

 

[mayserwegener]

Ah, very nice, so this would be a Type 2. But as I read this, I wonder, if we could limit the label-date to post 1939 because of the end of Czechoslovakia. On the other hand, Type 3 explicitly says Made in Germany, which begs the question, why there's an intermediate label-type! I guess that's why you say "medium confidence" there.

Because we would expect Czechoslovakia OR Germany (and some k.u.k. before, which obviously doesn't appear explicitly). Or is this maybe a label, that was used after 1939 until they got the paper work done to "advertise" as Made in Germany? Because at first the Czech part of Czechoslovakia was only "under German protection" and not part of Germany. I can't figure out historically if there was a lag there, because this all happend very quickly on the 14th and 15th of march and I don't know if there is a difference between "under German protection" and "Reichsprotektorat". But the second sounds like a bureaucratically advanced thing. So maybe there is a short time, when things were unclear and so the labels didn't mention any state.



Of course this is a desired effect. They wouldn't give their product the (internal) name after a non-desired fault. I just wanted to say, that for a deliberatly rough surface it's too smooth for my taste. That's why I opted for the color-explanation. But this is of course just a guess.

I have the Type 3 Label marked as "Strong Confidence". JHS had 3 factories at the time. The Type 3 Labels marked Made in Germany could be from the Ratibor factory also I believe the hats were exported to Bulgaria which could be another factor. Type 3 and 4 Labels are the same format. The hats have similar components / construction also other date markers.

After WWI JHS couldn't export to Germany and Austria via Czechoslovakia so they added two factories outside of Czechoslovakia. The JHS Hats in this time period that were made for German and Austrian markets don't have a country of origin. As you mentioned post 1939 it became even more unclear.

There are some longer hairs mixed into and it's roughly cut. Could also be impregnated for durability. Unfortunately this production information is not available.

 

[Wangenheim]

JHS had 3 factories at the time. The Type 3 Labels marked Germany could be from the Ratibor factory also I believe the hats were exported to Bulgaria which could be another factor. One of the Type 4 Labels has Adolf Hitlerpl for Eger. Type 3 and 4 Labels are the same format.

I don't have time to explain this now but after WWI JHS couldn't export to Germany and Austria via Czechoslovakia so they added two factories outside of Czechoslovakia.

There are some longer hairs mixed into and it's roughly cut. Could also be impregnated for durability. Unfortunately this production information is not available.

Ah, so it's a bit more complicated with the factories.

I just scrolled through your Wegener-Thread and saw an oak- and laurel-wreath at the inside of the crown with the Wegener-W-Head. And that just reminded me of the remains inside of my unidentified Fake-Borsalino. The resemblance is not acurat, but maybe...

 

[mayserwegener]

Ah, so it's a bit more complicated with the factories.

I just scrolled through your Wegener-Thread and saw an oak- and laurel-wreath at the inside of the crown with the Wegener-W-Head. And that just reminded me of the remains inside of my unidentified Fake-Borsalino. The resemblance is not acurat, but maybe...

Definitely a complicated situation. Same with post WWII up to the early 1950s. I know that Anton Peschel had a lot of problems because they didn't have the money to build a factory outside of Czechoslovakia after WWI. Brüder Böhm already had a factory in Vienna.

I would have to take a look at that hat again. It's very difficult to find WWII era and earlier Wegener Hats. Hopefully you can add to the small numbers.

 

[marting81]

Matt, I know from at least 1954 (possibly earlier) Friedrich W. Schneider Köln was using the "Wilke" brand but not sure for how long. My searches came up blank but if I had to guess they had it to the end. It's hard to say who made this latest example for FWS but I think your dating is accurate.

F.W.S. advertisement (in a 1954 German Hat Exhibition booklet I have photo archived) that mentions the Wilke mark.

Alleinverkauf means that (they thought) they are the only one selling wilkes... Last stocks... I think i hav to go to museum in town and ask maybe they know exactly. I did not found anywhere that the family gave away the brandname. Even on https://fwshats.de/historie/ you dont find anything about wilke hats . This would say all our wilke hats are produced before 1948.

 

[mayserwegener]

Alleinverkauf means that (they thought) they are the only one selling wilkes... Last stocks... I think i hav to go to museum in town and ask maybe they know exactly. I did not found anywhere that the family gave away the brandname. Even on https://fwshats.de/historie/ you dont find anything about wilke hats . This would say all our wilke hats are produced before 1948.

Update: I forgot I already proved the F.W.S. and Wilke connection (see post below this one) but feel free to read through this. Also see Matt's post.

The only original C. G. Wilke Guben is the first hat "Trumpf" you posted. F. W. Schneider took over marks of German Hat companies that went out of business. They were distributors for foreign makers (see Cervo, Dobesch, ect). They had / have their own marks that sourced hats for. What is on their website today is not complete (highly possible they don't know these Wilke & BGH connections).

This is the complete Trade booklet (1954) where the above F.W.S. advert came from.

F.W.S.

F.W.S. Advert

I have info on what happened to the Wilke family post WWII but I would have to look for it. I am primarily interested in the Felt and Hat production so if there is nothing related to either I tend to forget about it.

F. W. S. took over the Berlin Gubner Hutfabrik brand too. Another complicated story.

https://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/topic/320-friedrich-w-schneider-köln/?do=findComment&comment=1911

Update: I forgot I already proved the F.W.S. and Wilke connection (see next post).

 

[mayserwegener]

I actually already proved the F.W.S. connection with the Wilke brand but I forgot about it. See link below. Also the post above the linked post.

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/german-austrian-hutmachers.32103/page-441#post-2810348

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

Just a small reflection on Wilke/BGH/VEB VHG after WWII and the connection to F.W.S.:

I know that various VEBs in the GDR produced washing machines that were only for export and then sold under the name Miele, among others, in West Germany - for which the GDR received foreign currency.

We also know that Wilke and BGH operated as VEB VHG from 1948/52 on, but that F.W.S. Cologne - at the latest in 1954 - sold hats under the name 'Wilke', of which it is not clear who made them and where.

Would it perhaps be possible that F.W.S. in Cologne purchased hats from Guben and sold them under the brand name 'Wilke', which was very well known at least in Germany in the 1950s?!

The labels of the VHG and the F.W.S. hats look very similar - not what's written on it but the piece of paper itself (also the dimensions?)...
I'm not sure it all makes sense like that, let alone if it could be true. It's just a thought that just came to my mind with all this discussion...

VEB VHG

F.W.S. Köln

 

[Wangenheim]

Definitely a complicated situation. Same with post WWII up to the early 1950s. I know that Anton Peschel had a lot of problems because they didn't have the money to build a factory outside of Czechoslovakia after WWI. Brüder Böhm already had a factory in Vienna.

I would have to take a look at that hat again. It's very difficult to find WWII era and earlier Wegener Hats. Hopefully you can add to the small numbers.

I combined the two signs on one picture. Of course, the remains in my hat are desperately small, but it obviously shows the right side of a garland. The inside gives us this ominous "Nova"(?) lettering instead. But this Wegener-Logo is the closest I have seen so far. Maybe it is a different version. And of course, maybe it has nothing to do with each other. But as I am keen to know the origins of my hat, I had to notice this resemblance.

 

[mayserwegener]

Just a small reflection on Wilke/BGH/VEB VHG after WWII and the connection to F.W.S.:

I know that various VEBs in the GDR produced washing machines that were only for export and then sold under the name Miele, among others, in West Germany - for which the GDR received foreign currency.

We also know that Wilke and BGH operated as VEB VHG from 1948/52 on, but that F.W.S. Cologne - at the latest in 1954 - sold hats under the name 'Wilke', of which it is not clear who made them and where.

Would it perhaps be possible that F.W.S. in Cologne purchased hats from Guben and sold them under the brand name 'Wilke', which was very well known at least in Germany in the 1950s?!

The labels of the VHG and the F.W.S. hats look very similar - not what's written on it but the piece of paper itself (also the dimensions?)...
I'm not sure it all makes sense like that, let alone if it could be true. It's just a thought that just came to my mind with all this discussion...

VEB VHG

F.W.S. Köln

Matt, Great detective work. If that is the case not sure how long that lasted. I could never find any West German trademark information for Wilke (or BGH). As far as I know the Wilke and BGH trademarks weren't used in the GDR.

Here is some info I found awhile ago (2017) regarding BGH but I didn't note the source. There is nothing about trademarks.

Hess hat factory

Berlin - Gubener Hutfabrik AG

Formerly A. Cohn
Guben - Kassel - Recklinghausen
The hat factory was established on 16 Founded in April 1888. The foundation was based on the assumption of the Apelius Cohn and Herman Levin, 1859 in Berlin and 1876 in Guben under the name A. Cohn founded Hutfabrikationsgeschäfte. Were produced men's and ladies' hats made of wool and fur felt and straw and plastic netting.
By 1920 Hermann Levin directs the company. After his death, Dr. Alexander Levin, the position of Director General. 1922, the company employed about 3,000 workers and employees at the main plant Guben and smaller side businesses and grew the largest Hutproduzenten Germany. Dr. Alexander Levin was a Jew. He had left Germany, leaving behind the hat factory in 1938.
To 29 May 1934 was the company name Gubener Berlin AG hat factory, in front of A. Cohn. There after, the coated "formerly A. Cohn" in the company name and it was now Gubener Berlin AG hat factory. During the second World War II was converted from hat factory production largely to "war-important" material. Effects of war ruined the once prosperous hat industry in Guben. This industry was never again to reach former heydays.
1949, the company was shifted from the communist planned economy to Kassel area. In 1959, the company then moved around to Recklinghausen. Status of production and the hat factory Hess Ltd. The building had stood at the Herne Road 57 adjacent to the railway line just before the bridge slaughterhouse. In 1965, the company hat factory in Recklinghausen GmbH (former hat factory Hess) renamed. The company has gone out in the meantime.

 

[mayserwegener]

I combined the two signs on one picture. Of course, the remains in my hat are desperately small, but it obviously shows the right side of a garland. The inside gives us this ominous "Nova"(?) lettering instead. But this Wegener-Logo is the closest I have seen so far. Maybe it is a different version. And of course, maybe it has nothing to do with each other. But as I am keen to know the origins of my hat, I had to notice this resemblance.

View attachment 492524

Interesting but would need to find a Wegener patch with that exact design.

 

[mayserwegener]

Regarding C.G. Wilke and BGH. Here is some follow up information I found on my website that I had forgotten about.

The following is a translated footnote from "Chapeau, Das Westalgäu behütet die Welt, Die Geschichte der Hutprodukrion in Lindenberg und Umgebung, 2015" (This is a great book that I purchased at the Deutsches Hut Museum Lindenberg). The footnote contains some info on Guben's pre WWII major hat companies C.W. Wilke and Berlin - Gubener Hutfabrik, post WWII VEB Vereinigte HutWerke Guben, and post unification Gubener Hüte GmbH.


"In Guben (city law since 1235, known as cloth-maker town) developed the hat maker Carl Gottlob Wilke 1822 waterproof wool felt hat. His sons - especially Friedrich Wilke - made from the hat maker's workshop the largest Gubener hat factory, the C G. Wilke hair and wool felt hat factory Guben. In addition came as another large business, in addition to several smaller hat factories, the Berlin-Gubener hat factory, founded by Apelius Cohn and Hermann Lewin (Berlin 1859, Guben 1876), which employed in 1922 alone 3000 workers and employees. In 1927, the year of crisis in Westallgäu's straw hat industry, Guben had a total of 7,460 people working in the felt hat industry. In the same year, around 10 million hats were produced, of which around 30 percent were for export. For comparison: In 1925, the city of Lindenberg had a total of 5,168 inhabitants, and in 1927 it was probably not much more. In March 1946, the Berlin-Gubener Hutfabrik was dismantled as reparations to the Soviet Union; 1952 developed from the C. G. Wilke hat factory in conjunction with the other Gubener hat factories, the national VEB Vereinigte Hut-Werke Guben with about 1,200 employees; In 1989, 1.2 million stumps and 800,000 felt hats were produced there.

After the turnaround, the state-owned enterprise was privatized in 1990 by the Treuhandanstalt and transformed into the Gubener Hüte GmbH. The number of employees sank to 600; In 1992 there were still 70, the end of 1999 with 10 employees, the operation was closed. In summer 2006, a hat and technology museum was opened in a building of the old hat factory C. G. Wilke."

"Chapeau, Das Westalgau behütet die Welt, Die Geschichte der Hutprodukrion in Lindenberg und Umgebung, 2015"

 

[Steve1857]

Just a small reflection on Wilke/BGH/VEB VHG after WWII and the connection to F.W.S.:

I know that various VEBs in the GDR produced washing machines that were only for export and then sold under the name Miele, among others, in West Germany - for which the GDR received foreign currency.

We also know that Wilke and BGH operated as VEB VHG from 1948/52 on, but that F.W.S. Cologne - at the latest in 1954 - sold hats under the name 'Wilke', of which it is not clear who made them and where.

Would it perhaps be possible that F.W.S. in Cologne purchased hats from Guben and sold them under the brand name 'Wilke', which was very well known at least in Germany in the 1950s?!

The labels of the VHG and the F.W.S. hats look very similar - not what's written on it but the piece of paper itself (also the dimensions?)...
I'm not sure it all makes sense like that, let alone if it could be true. It's just a thought that just came to my mind with all this discussion...

VEB VHG

F.W.S. Köln

That is a very interesting hypothesis, Matt. One definitely worth investigating further. We'll have to hope for more evidence to turn up. Strange these things are shrouded in mystery.

Steve has done a great job unearthing all kinds of information. It would seem though, there are still a few dots to be joined.

Ah well, nothing like a hat mystery to get our juices flowing on the FL

 

[marting81]

Regarding C.G. Wilke and BGH. Here is some follow up information I found on my website that I had forgotten about.

The following is a translated footnote from "Chapeau, Das Westalgäu behütet die Welt, Die Geschichte der Hutprodukrion in Lindenberg und Umgebung, 2015" (This is a great book that I purchased at the Deutsches Hut Museum Lindenberg). The footnote contains some info on Guben's pre WWII major hat companies C.W. Wilke and Berlin - Gubener Hutfabrik, post WWII VEB Vereinigte HutWerke Guben, and post unification Gubener Hüte GmbH.


"In Guben (city law since 1235, known as cloth-maker town) developed the hat maker Carl Gottlob Wilke 1822 waterproof wool felt hat. His sons - especially Friedrich Wilke - made from the hat maker's workshop the largest Gubener hat factory, the C G. Wilke hair and wool felt hat factory Guben. In addition came as another large business, in addition to several smaller hat factories, the Berlin-Gubener hat factory, founded by Apelius Cohn and Hermann Lewin (Berlin 1859, Guben 1876), which employed in 1922 alone 3000 workers and employees. In 1927, the year of crisis in Westallgäu's straw hat industry, Guben had a total of 7,460 people working in the felt hat industry. In the same year, around 10 million hats were produced, of which around 30 percent were for export. For comparison: In 1925, the city of Lindenberg had a total of 5,168 inhabitants, and in 1927 it was probably not much more. In March 1946, the Berlin-Gubener Hutfabrik was dismantled as reparations to the Soviet Union; 1952 developed from the C. G. Wilke hat factory in conjunction with the other Gubener hat factories, the national VEB Vereinigte Hut-Werke Guben with about 1,200 employees; In 1989, 1.2 million stumps and 800,000 felt hats were produced there.

After the turnaround, the state-owned enterprise was privatized in 1990 by the Treuhandanstalt and transformed into the Gubener Hüte GmbH. The number of employees sank to 600; In 1992 there were still 70, the end of 1999 with 10 employees, the operation was closed. In summer 2006, a hat and technology museum was opened in a building of the old hat factory C. G. Wilke."

"Chapeau, Das Westalgau behütet die Welt, Die Geschichte der Hutprodukrion in Lindenberg und Umgebung, 2015"

Soon i will go deeper in that topic but now i do not have the time...

 

[marting81]

As in "Gubener Heimatkalender 1969" is written that 1945 "Wilke" and later "Berlin-Gubener Hutfabrik AG" and "die ehemalige Fugmannsche Fabrik" (Fabrik Fugmann) startet producing. These 3 then combined together with "Haarschneiderei und Gießerei" to "Vereinigte Hutwerke" in 1952.

Will try to digitalize all this to make it searchable and translateable easy
There is also written that in '45 they started producing with material they had in stock and repaired and renewed worn hats, but when materials were empty customers and suppliers and other tried get material and send to them to produce the wilkes for their shops. "Lohnfertigung" they only gave salery.

 

[mayserwegener]

As in "Gubener Heimatkalender 1969" is written that 1945 "Wilke" and later "Berlin-Gubener Hutfabrik AG" and "die ehemalige Fugmannsche Fabrik" (Fabrik Fugmann) startet producing. These 3 then combined together with "Haarschneiderei und Gießerei" to "Vereinigte Hutwerke" in 1952.
View attachment 492642 View attachment 492643 View attachment 492644

Will try to digitalize all this to make it searchable and translateable easy
There is also written that in '45 they started producing with material they had in stock and repaired and renewed worn hats, but when materials were empty customers and suppliers and other tried get material and send to them to produce the wilkes for their shops. "Lohnfertigung" they only gave salery.

Looking forward to the information! Take your time.

 

[mayserwegener]

Kurt Mühlhardt: Mein Hut der ist ein Wilke, Werbung der Hutfabrik C. G. Wilke in Guben, c. 1935

 

[mayserwegener]

This is the C. G. Wilke Guben website I came across a few years ago. I can't remember if I posted it here before so here it is again.

https://themator.museum-digital.de/ausgabe/showthema.php?m_tid=567&tid=592&ver=nat

English Translation

https://themator-museum--digital-de..._sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp