German & Austrian Hutmachers

[TheDane]

Thanks! I was going to post the Böhm patents too. Robert (RLK) had found these a few years ago (posted the URLs) but I never got around to posting them (the books on early 20th century American hat manufacturing jogged my memory). There was definitely a lot of interests ($$$) in reducing the number steps necessary to produce high quality Velour finishes. From what I have seen today the scratching, clipping and brushing is done after the dyeing and results are nothing like was produced in the first half of the 20th Century.

Google Patents is a great place to be for a curious mind! You may not find what you're looking for - but you simply can't help stumbling on something interesting

Without being absolutely sure, I see Böhm's chromium patent (the first in my post above) to be an attempt to substitute mercury with another - but less poisonous - heavy metal. The procedure was supposed to be used either before or during the carting/brushing - before or during the dying - or even during the blocking process. I don't necessarily see this particular patent as a shortcut, it could be used alongside the traditional treatment. I fully agree on the rest of your remarks, though

 

[TheDane]

Steve: Just above the image of the scratching brush on the translated page, it says: "[...] Einwalkung of the hat". "Walkung" can be translated with "fulling". I would probably translate it into: "The effect of the brush has not only the purpose to fetch the hair out, it also at the same time contributes to the felting of the hat"

 

[mayserwegener]

I think the second Böhm patent is more related to the Haakh - Sabal patent. They are definitely addressing Velour finishes. I think JHS might have been one the first to move away from the use of mercury. If I find the info I will post it.

 

[mayserwegener]

Steve: Just above the image of the scratching brush on the translated page, it says: "[...] Einwalkung of the hat". "Walkung" can be translated with "fulling". I would probably translate it into: "The effect of the brush has not only the purpose to fetch the hair out, it also at the same time contributes to the felting of the hat"

I would think the process would be as described in the Haakh - Sabal patent (see 5, 10, 15). This was at least a two week process so very expensive labor / time wise.

"The said scratching, brushing and shaping and drying operations must be repeated until the desired gloss is imparted to the hair and it has lost its felting property."

Side note: I added a photo ( from 1902) of JHS Velour hat bodies a couple of posts back.

 

[TheDane]

I would think the process would be as described in the Haakh - Sabal patent

Exactly. The fur can be felted to a certain degree, and then no more. The brush pulls out hair, but it also felts the fur even more - and it's repeated until the fur can't be felted anymore. A more correct translation is probably something like: "The effect of the brush has not only the purpose to fetch the hair out, it also at the same time finishes the felting of the hat body".

I definitely agree, that the second Böhm patent is related to the Haakh - Sabal patent. Very closely

 

[mayserwegener]

I believe the description in the Haakh - Sabal patent is more clear. It would be interesting to know how successful these patents were. I believe it remained a very time consuming process because the ultra high end Austrian Velour finishes disappear after the very early 1950s. What passes as Velour today is nothing like was produced back in the time period of these patents.

 

[TheDane]

Yes, it's a clearer, but also less detailed. I'm not sure, but I don't see the chromium process, described by Böhm, as a substitute for the painstaking physical felting/brushing work. I see it as just an attempt to raise the level of lustre.

The Haakh - Sabal patent and the other Böhm patent I see as substitutions for much of the felting work. They take the felt to a point of "no further felting possible" in a partly chemical way - instead of the continuously repeated wetting, brushing, scratching, shaping and drying processes.

The velour we see today could be a result of those two patents (or further developments hereof). The felt is briefly scraped and brushed - and then chemically treated to create lustre and obtain "tiring" of the felt. Maybe the two processes were first really used in the 50s, and that's why the quality got so poor. I really would like to know, what the chromium process would do, if it was to be combined with repeated wetting, brushing, scratching, shaping and drying

 

[mayserwegener]

I do have one Böhm Velour (the only one I have ever seen) from 20s / 30s and it is very good but a step below JHS.

As I mentioned the quality was still high into the early 50s (see JHS - TONAK comparison below). Today as far as I know the Velour finishing is done after the hoods have been dyed (not the old process). I am sure the steady decline of the felt quality was another big factor.

J. Hückel´s Söhne (JHS) Zephyr Seal Velour, size 7 3/8 (late 1930s) vs. TONAK Formely Hückel Zephyr Seal Velour, size 7 3/8 (late 1940s early 1950s)

The older JHS Zephyr Seal Velour (right side) felt color, finish and hand are at a slightly higher level (I think you can see the color and finish differences in the photo). I have no idea what process was used to produce this finish. I do know there isn't anything of this quality being produced today.

 

[TheDane]

Today as far as I know the Velour finishing is done after the hoods have been dyed (not the old process).

That's my understanding too. A year or two ago I saw a video - I think from Tonak - where some ladies were machine brushing/carting hoods. You probably know the machine type with a conical drum, covered with some sharkskin-like material. The hoods looked quite finished and small, so I think the brushing/carting was done just before blocking (and after dying). The overall decline in quality was probably due to a combination of several different things - very likely also the felt quality.

I know a female painter who studied pharmaceutical chemistry. It could be interesting to talk to her about a practical "kitchen table" implementation of the Böhm #1 - and maybe run a best quality contemporary Tonak or Fepsa velour/melusine hood through the witch-brew. I can see that most of the chemicals needed are prohibited for private persons in Europe/Denmark, so I would need a professional connection to purchase them.

Maybe next Halloween

 

[mayserwegener]

I know a female painter who studied pharmaceutical chemistry. It could be interesting to talk to her about a practical "kitchen table" implementation of the Böhm #1 - and maybe run a best quality contemporary Tonak or Fepsa velour/melusine hood through the witch-brew. I can see that most of the chemicals needed are prohibited for private persons in Europe/Denmark, so I would need a professional connection to purchase them.

Maybe next Halloween

I believe in both Böhm patents the hat bodies haven't been dyed. It isn't clear (at least to me) if any Velour process has taken place prior to immersion.

Böhm eventually sold finishing machines to American hat companies. I think this is why they started applying for US patents. I posted about this a while ago. JHS (considered the finest + largest + oldest producer) on the other hand kept everything in house (same with A. Peschel).

It would be amazing to find one of the natural (no dye) JHS Velour bodies (even better a finished hat) like the ones in the photo I posted.

That's my understanding too. A year or two ago I saw a video - I think from Tonak - where some ladies were machine brushing/carting hoods. You probably know the machine type with a conical drum, covered with some sharkskin-like material. The hoods looked quite finished and small, so I think the brushing/carting was done just before blocking (and after dying). The overall decline in quality was probably due to a combination of several different things - very likely also the felt quality.

Yes that appears to be the standard practice today. When I visited TONAK I saw the Bahner Velour machines. Unfortunately TONAK is very guarded about their finishing and dying processes. They definitely weren't interested in my questions about the JHS glory days. I know there is valuable information in the TONAK vaults (JHS main factory which became TONAK made it through WWII intact) but getting to it is the problem. It's possible there is someone alive that has some information on past processes but I am not sure how to find them without TONAK's (they have no interest in the past) or the Novy Jicin City Museum's (they are not interested in detailed manufacturing processes) help.

 

[TheDane]

I'm not sure either. Böhm talks about treating "hat bodies and velour hat bodies". I guess it wouldn't make sense to discriminate, if the "velour hat bodies" weren't scratched at this time(?) But I'm still not sure.

You're completely right: He doesn't make clear if the processes can be run on already dyed bodies, either. At first I actually don't care if it turns up polka-dotted or clan-patterned - I just so would like to know, what the processes do to the lustre (and maybe "hand")

We have talked about the black color before, and I know we have similar thoughts on the decline of quality in especially dark colors. I believe that many chemicals have been prohibited since the glory days of the great German factories. That spells even more unknown variables, so it's probably best to split up the goals of any practical investigations.

I'm sure you're right about the lack of interest from TONAK. I must say, I admire your perseverance, though. You're a true historian and a great asset to The Lounge! You would be an obvious candidate for an honorary membership of the non-existing thread "Hat Historians' Hall of Fame" ... square hat with tassel and all

 

[mayserwegener]

Ole, Thanks! It's a shame regarding TONAK. The JHS factory (the last major hat factory standing) is loaded with history but they are not interested in the past (especially regarding technical information). The Novy Jicin city museum are only interested in biographical information and hat displays. Any technical inquiry will be directed to TONAK which results in a dead end. If I spent a month or two in Novy Jicin I could probably dig deeper.

Yes the Böhm patents are not very clear. I would like to see more of their Velours from this time period so I could make a better judgement. I am not sure if Böhm produced their own Velour bodies prior to opening (1906) a factory in Novy Jicin which was already the center of Austrian Velour with JHS and A. Peschel. Böhm had a great interest in promoting wool stiff and soft felt hats (most of the pre 1940 Böhms I have found are wool (or some type of blend) stiff felts).

 

[mayserwegener]

Mario sent me these photos so I decided to post them again because the original links are broken.

 

[mayserwegener]

Eleganter Sporthut

This one belongs to Mario. Not sure of the maker but great form, finish and color. Could be 1930s.

 

[mayserwegener]

Mayser

This one belongs to Mario.

 

[mayserwegener]

Mayser Superbe

This one belongs to Mario.

 

[mayserwegener]

Wegener Colonel

This one belongs to Mario.

 

[mayserwegener]

A. Peschel Chevret

This one belongs to Mario.

 

[mayserwegener]

Otto Matt

Original photos by Mario. This beauty now belongs to Alan.

 

[mayserwegener]

G.J.M.

This fantastic old Velour belongs to Mario.