Franklin Automobile

[cwdubya]

I haven't posted very much to this board, just lurked mainly, but I've been mulling over the idea about getting a vintage automobile from the 1920s-early 30s time period. I found a (seemlingly) good deal on a Franklin sedan from 1924. The plusses- price, and the style- the hood and front end are gorgeous... very distinctive. There's no restoration that really needs to be done, and it runs. Of course there's always more you could do if you wanted it to win shows. I'm sure that it will need to be tuned and worked over to keep it running reliably, regularly. However, I'm a complete rookie. I don't want it to seem like I've got more money than brains, because it's definitely in the same bracket that a Ford Model A is in price, so it's not really that outrageous in price. It could be very well like owning a sailboat- the first and last day are the best days of ownership, so in that way someone could blame me for having a lack of brains I figured I'd come to the forum to ask what general knowledge people might have about Franklins, and Model A's. Should I 'start out' with something simpler like a Ford where there's a big support system for it in the form of forums, clubs, and parts to save myself heartache, or should I get something more rare that appeals to me more personally? The Franklin was an expensive car in its day, far more than a Model A, but that could very well mean that replacement parts are either non-existent or ultra- expensive. Just trying to do more planning so I can hopefully minimize headaches and or disaster after the fact. Any advice or help is very welcome, thanks in advance! Also if I should post this in the big thread about automobiles I can do that too, I just didn't want to hijack it.

Clayton

 

[1930artdeco]

Hi Clayton,

This is the way I look at it. If you like it-buy it. That being said (I have a Model A) there are some plusses and minuses. On the plus side, you like the style, and it will be a fun car learn on (mechanics, driving ect.) and it will retain its value. On the bad side parts are going to be the biggest problem for you. As you have stated the support network is not there like there is for an 'A'. That being said check out the AACA web site, I think they have a section just for Franklin's. You will also learn to go to places like Hershey PA for their swapmeet every year just to get spare parts-and you WILL BUY SPARE PARTS. So there is a trade off in the support side vs. I love the car and I really want it. That is my 2 cents worth.

Mike

 

[Rathdown]

Hi Clayton--

I presume that this will be your first "vintage" car, and if that's the case then you might want to consider the merits of buying a more mainstream car than a Franklin for a couple of reasons, the first (obviously) being parts accessibility. The other reason for considering something less exotic is that while misery loves company, when your car breaks down you are on your own. This is where membership in a local car club is a big plus; you can attend meets, and go on tours secure in the knowledge that if something does go pop, there are probably half a dozen sympathetic guys with the same make/model who are more than willing to lend a hand to get you back on the road.

I usually advise potential old car owners to be ready to spend about 25% of the purchase price of their car on "mechanical things" during the first year of ownership. That said, you should buy an old car as much with your heart as your head. Those who rely on "love at first sight" often end up way over their head in running and restoration costs, while those who base their decisions on calculated fact often miss out on the very best cars (and other things in life, as well).

What it boils down to is this: how do you define fun? If fixing an old car is your idea of fun, then go for the Frankin. If hopping in an old car and heading out on a three day weekend with a bunch of other guys with similar cars is what you are interested in doing, then a 1932-39 main stream American car is probably a better bet.

Happy motoring!

Scott

 

[Gregg Axley]

There are many on this board that have far more extensive knowledge of vintage autos than I do, but I have firsthand knowledge of your problem, albeit by accident.
I bought a 1932 Chevy in the early 90's, to make a street-rod out of (for those who don't know a streetrod has modern wiring, engine, transmission, brakes, etc). I found out it needed a $5500 dollar wood "skeleton" to tack the metal onto, and the frame wasn't in great shape either. (I later traded it for work on my Essex)
Enter a 1929 Essex 2 door 5 passenger car. It was complete when I got it, with extra parts. The problem was, once a part broke I was screwed, there were no more parts to be had, because Hemmings Motor News didn't show anybody advertising any.
My only choice was to make a street-rod out of it, using the original frame, fenders, etc, but minus the drivetrain and suspension.
Now with the internet things are easier.
All that being said, here's my advice "research the amount of support for that car before buying it, because you don't want to run into what I did, with no support and no extra parts should something break. If there is a good support for Franklin cars, then by all means buy it, you already love the look and the price is right.

 

[StudioCB]

Are you aware that the Franklin is air cooled?

 

[cwdubya]

Mike-

Basically one of my biggest worries about the Franklin is that it has an aluminum body, an ash frame, and wood spoke wheels. Comparing that to the Model A, and you've got much more 'modern' construction. Of course a lot has to do with the era- many changes between 1924 and 1928. But it throws up potential red flags. Thanks for the tip on the AACA website! I did find the H.H. Franklin Club online, too bad they're clear across the country from me. How do you like your Model A? The genesis of this entire project came from watching a web series and reading a blog on one- 365 Days of A, and coupled with my interest in the prohibition era in general, and I'm in love. But paralysis by analysis has always been one of my faults (or strengths!) and I've been doing as much research as I can. I will say that the Model A clubs and the car's general construction has me leaning that way. The lines don't captivate me as much as the Franklin though, so that's the rub.

Scott-

Yes, this will be my first vintage car. Thanks for the tip on the local club. I haven't done a lot of searching, but I do know that I have the Spokane Model T Club 90 miles north of me. The 25% rule makes a lot of sense, and I'll be sure to budget for that. I'm sure that I'll learn soon that it's not a case of being able to turn the key and reliably go where you want, when you want, anytime you want. My grandfather was a Ford mechanic after he graduated from the Allen Auto School in Des Moines, Iowa until he had a stroke in the late 70s in Cheyenne, Wyoming. I wish I could rely on his expertise, I'd have bought a vintage automobile right away and have been cracking on it by now. As an interesting side note, I have a letter from the Ford Motor Company dated August 14, 1931 sent to him at Vinton, Iowa, recognizing him as the 20 millionth Ford toured through town on it's way to the west coast. I also have a photo from that event. I guess I want to balance love at first sight with the reality of just exactly what I'm getting into with vintage ownership. With the 1932-39 cars, how much of a generational jump in reliability and repairability is there between the 1924-31 era? Since I'm the guy (like anyone I suppose!) that likes his cake and eats it too, touring and repair both interest me, but if I'm being completely honest with myself and you, hopping in and going for a drive interests me more. Not to the extent where I need 100 percent ability to turn the key and go- that's what my Subaru Outback is around for

Gregg-

Thanks for your advice. I basically want to keep the car as original to factory or era specs as I can, so I'll be sure to make the issue of parts availability a main priority in my decision. The internet helps a great deal, but the relative scarcity of parts just owing to low production numbers is concerning. After I found this Franklin, I tried to do some searching to find a similar model for sale. I've found some aluminum bodies, but as far as complete or mostly complete examples, I've struck out. I've been able to find later cars dating from the early 30s, but no sedans like the one I'm considering, a photo of the model is below:

http://0.tqn.com/d/classiccars/1/0/a/2/-/-/1924Franklin.gif

Ultimately if parts aren't available, I'd either have to improvise and change things out with what will work and what can be sourced, like from Ford or Chevy, and have a Franklin body with internal modifications, or I'd have an expensive lawn ornament. There's a voice in my head that says 'Go for it, the car is dead sexy' but the practical side says 'stop dreaming and buy a Model A, logistics and parts matter.' If the practical side says to buy a car that's at least 81 years old, I suppose there's something wrong to start with! There's also the matter of having the Model T club somewhat locally, where I could get advice and help in person, but honestly the ones that appeal to me are the mid 20s models, and they're not as aesthetically pleasing as the Model A is to me, and I bet they wouldn't be as easy to just go for a drive in either.

Clayton

 

[vitanola]

I traded in my first car, a 1919 Ford for a 1928 Paige-Detroit (actually a leftover 1927 titled as a '28). The Paige was not too terribly difficult to keep on the road, as it was an assembled car. A copy of an old Dykes substitution manual helped me to find necessary wear parts. This Paige used a Lycoming 8 engine, Bendix brakes, Spicer rear end, Warner transmission, and front axle shared with some Henney hearses, so parts were not entirely made of unobtanium. The Franklin is a different matter, as that firm manufactuers most of their own chassis, and it was an idisyncratic chassis, to say the least! I would ask for advice on the AACA (Antique Automobile Club of America) forum. They are friendly folks over there, and you'll probably find someone who knows just what's what about ese machines.

 

[cwdubya]

StudioCB-

That's what I've read. The website where the above photo comes from has this to say: 'The 1924 Franklin was said to be the ideal car for extreme climates because it's air cooled engine could neither over heat or freeze.' Several cars of the past incorporated that design- good or bad characteristic?

Clayton

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

"Practical" concerns aside, I'd say go for it if only for the investment potential. I would if I had the means. The very fact that the cars and their parts are scarce compared to more common makes, is testimony to the potential future value.
Realistically, one wouldn't want to drive a car very much that was relatively rare as seems to be the case with the Franklin. Parts wear out with repeated use, so if you use the car sparingly, it should not be a problem in the long run. Many classic car owners keep their rare cars in top shape by simply not driving them often. But how often and how far to drive such a car in order to prevent excessive wear, or simple dry rot from disuse? I bet Jay Leno has a lot of practical advise based upon his experience with rare vehicles.

 

[cwdubya]

Maj. Nick Danger-

The investment potential is one of those things that I wonder about actually. From what I've read, originally the Franklin sedan retailed for more than $3000 that year. The Ford Model A ran from $500-$1200 when it was sold. I know that they weren't in the same bracket- the Franklin being marketed against Hudson and Packard, but that does raise some questions to Me. I feel like the price I was offered- $11k, is pretty fair. I've seen Ford Model A's in good condition sell from $10-$15k+ depending on specific model and condition, etc. Is it a case of if something feels too good to be true, is it? I've seen Franklin aluminum sedan bodies sold for $9k by themselves, with no parts at all. Obviously the market can be a strange place, and vintage anything needs a buyer(s) at the right place at the right time to maximize price. But it looks like a good deal to me right now, I hope that it doesn't turn into 'too good' of a deal if I buy it.

Clayton

 

[cwdubya]

vitanola-

I took your advice and posted a thread over on the AACA, thanks!

Clayton

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

These are tough times economically, so people tend to sell things for less than the actual value. Have you actually seen and driven the car? Perhaps the owner is "desperate" to sell. [huh]

 

[vitanola]

Well, the 1920's cars prices have been progressively softening for the past thirty years, asve for the rarified machines at the top ofthe range and Fords. To a great extent the Ford cars have retained their value due to the existence of several large and active clubs devoted to the marque. The purchase of an inexpensive Ford car brings an instant hobby to a family, along with a large and freindly fellowship of like-minded folks. The mid-range 1920's cars have no such support group, and have been fading from
Opularity. I speak from experience, having owned and extensively driven quite a number of machines other than my Fords, including the 1928 Paige, a 1922 Dodge Brothers, a 1924 Cleveland, 1925 Buick Four, 1920 Templar, 1922 Star, 1915 Winton, a 1929 Willys-Knight, and a 1926 Chandler. Even in the 1980's these were not cars to buy for resale at a profit. In the late 1970's a Franklin would have been in the rarified class with the big boys, but today that is not necessarilly the case, as the marque has largely dropped from memory.

Don't fool yourself into believing that the purcahse of an old car will be a moneymaking activity. If you really like the machine and can afford it without skimping on your obligations just buy it, drive it, tinker with it, and enjoy it! If you counton profit you will generally be disappointed. If you simply see your purchase as an investemnt in fun you will never be disappointed, and may be pleasantly suprised when the time comes to pass your machine on to another.

 

[cwdubya]

Thanks for the advice- it's definitely just an investment in fun than something to make some money. That clears up my question about the price point on some of the other brands. I wish I could buy this 1924 Cadillac for $11k rather than this listed price

http://www.autotraderclassics.com/classic-car/1924-Cadillac-Type+V_63-830459.xhtml?conversationId=248366

It sounds like you've owned and driven a lot of really nice cars- hope that I can call a 20's car mine someday, sooner rather than later! What's been your favorite?

 

[vitanola]

I'm afraid that I always come back to my first love, the common as dirt, cranky rattle-trap Flivver!

 

[vitanola]

I'm afraid that I always come back to my first love, the common as dirt, cranky rattle-trap Flivver!

 

[vitanola]

Remember that Franklin machines of this vintage have wooden chassis frames which are subject to decay. They often are known to split just before or just aft of the fire-wall. This necessitates an expensive repair, a body-off restoration. One cannot be too careful about this, as a frame which snapps whilst one is braking on a curve can be disasterous. now that these cars are fast approaching the century mark it may be that most of them need new frame members to be really safe. Thirty years ago I would drive on carefully insoected original Model T Ford wood spoked wheels, but of late I find no originals to which I would trust my life, and insist upon having wheels re-wooded as a matter of course, This may well be advisable with wooden frames, now. I have a friend who is doing a Brush Runaout, another machine which uses a wood chassis (in addition to wood axles, hence the line: "A Brush. Wooden Body, wooden fenders, wooden chassis, woodem axles, wooden run!") who found sufficient occult decay that he is re-wooding the entire job.

Note, too, that the Franklin frames also tend to sag with time. A tell-tale sign of this sagging is a poor fit of the hood at the firewall. I suspect that the machine that you are looking at may well have one of these frame problems. I now recall turning down an otherwise attractive Franklin Opera Coupe many years ago because of a sagging frame.

 

[Gregg Axley]

Your statement is exactly the reason I made a streetrod out of my Essex.
Oddly enough, mine was made in February of 29, before the market crash, and it's solid steel throughout (except the wood used to tack on the interior pieces).
I have a few reproduction wood pieces, done by local craftsmen, because the old ones were good but not great.
Vitanola brings up a good point about the wood used on the Franklin, what condition is it in, and would it cause a safety problem?
Would you be able to reproduce a piece of wood, to make it safe if you needed to? And would it hurt the value of the car?
Again, what are you going to do with the car? Drive it every weekend, or a few times a year? Sadly due to time constraints I only drive mine a few times a year, which is very bad for a car.
If you get a Model A, you've got a Model A, know what I mean?
Maybe a more rare car such as a Hudson (sorry but I'm partial to Essex and Hudson ).
Or at least a car with more steel in it...just a suggestion.

 

[1930artdeco]

Another thing to consider is the drive train and brakes. The wood and body aluminum can be repaired by today's craftsman-albeit it will be expensive. The engine will need to be rebabbited at some point and that will be very expensive as you have to find someone who can pour babbit into that engine. Or you will have to have it machined for insert bearings. The brakes will be mechnical and if you have never driven a car of this vintage they are an experience and must be kept in top shape to function correctly. To give you a reference point I spent 3K on my engine and if I were to replace the wood in my car that would be another 4K to buy it. Just pointing all of this out so you don't get blindsided.

That being said there people out there who have these cars and drive them-not much but they do get driven. You will have to find them and learn where they get stuff repaired or built. That is one plus for the internet. I think the AACA is going to be your best bet, that and the Franklin club.

Mike

 

[LizzieMaine]

As far as quality of engineering goes, it's worth noting that Charles A. Lindbergh drove a Franklin -- he considered it the best-engineered car in America, and he didn't give such praise lightly.