Formal Wear Primer

[avedwards]

Your black vintage waistcoat is probably British. Is it made of the same wool fabric (probably barathea wool) as the dinner jacket and trousers? This was very typical of British-made waistcoats of the era, whereas American-made vests tended to be made of figured silk or rayon. (Fluteplayer's is of rayon.)


And yes ... British black waistcoats tended to have black horn, bakelite or corozo buttons permanently affixed, while American silk or rayon vests had detachable buttons.

I purchased mine in the UK so it's probably British, and it's made of barathea. I wasn't aware that our black tie norms differed from those of our "cousins" in that way. Are the horn buttons appropriate then if they are properly sewn on?

 

[fluteplayer07]

The waistcoat buttons on mine don't fasten to the reverse of the fabric. They're set into the holes, but the hairpin backs are hidden because another layer of fabric covers the inside lining of the vest. Unlike cuffs that allow cufflinks to be viewed from front and back, this vest hides the metal fastenings of the buttons. Does this still mean they're meant to be removable? It just doesn't seem like they are, I've been having difficulty in trying to extract them.

And is a stiff front shirt or a marcella front shirt more appropriate?

 

[Rathdown]

The waistcoat buttons on mine don't fasten to the reverse of the fabric. They're set into the holes, but the hairpin backs are hidden because another layer of fabric covers the inside lining of the vest. Unlike cuffs that allow cufflinks to be viewed from front and back, this vest hides the metal fastenings of the buttons. Does this still mean they're meant to be removable? It just doesn't seem like they are, I've been having difficulty in trying to extract them.

And is a stiff front shirt or a marcella front shirt more appropriate?

Check around the seam between the front of the waistcoat and the lining and you should find an opening that will allow you to change out the buttons.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Does this still mean they're meant to be removable?

Yes.

 

[sproily]

My latest formal wear find

 

[draws]

Sproily, very nice indeed! Did it come with a waistcoat?

 

[sproily]

I have an Edwardian waistcoat with lapels and a dove grey one, so that department is also taken care of!

 

[dhermann1]

I'm just now watching the LA Philharmonic under Gustavo Dudamel, the hot shot conductor from Venezuela. (He's really great, that's not meant as sarcasm at all.)
Anyhow, they're all dressed in white tie and tails, but they are all wearing wing collar ruffle front shirts and white cummerbunds. (The ladies are in black gowns, of course.) Can't say I hate it, but it is different. Wish I could post some images.
Any thoughts?

 

[dhermann1]

Here we go. This clip shows him in this get up. He's a pretty cool guy, can't criticize it.
http://video.pbs.org/video/1304120932/

 

[avedwards]

I'm just now watching the LA Philharmonic under Gustavo Dudamel, the hot shot conductor from Venezuela. (He's really great, that's not meant as sarcasm at all.)
Anyhow, they're all dressed in white tie and tails, but they are all wearing wing collar ruffle front shirts and white cummerbunds. (The ladies are in black gowns, of course.) Can't say I hate it, but it is different. Wish I could post some images.
Any thoughts?

Sounds similar to what the musicians wore yesterday at the last night of the Proms. Plenty of faux pas commited by the orchestra and conductor, such as wrongly coloured bow ties (though this was mostly limited to the choir), turndown collars with white tie, waistcoat showing beneath the tailcoat (the conductor), no waistcoats worn at all, etc. The only minor faux pas I will forgive the musicians for is wearing their buttonhole flowers on the wrong side so that they don't get in the way of their instruments (though I would have thought it more sensible to skip the buttonhole flower altogether since it's not a compulsory element of formalwear).

Don't get me wrong, it's nice to see white tie being worn at all but I wish they could do it a little bit better considering they're London's finest orchestra and must wear white tie quite a few times a year. Perhaps it would be better if the whole orchestra were to switch to wearing black tie as it's easier to get it right.

 

[Cobden]

I think I can forgive turndown collars - I can't see a detachable wing collar being very practical, digging in on violinists and I can see studs affecting the brass and woodwind sections. And, considering the frequency they'd need to wear it I can't see wearing a true white tie shirt almost daily is going to be financially viable (especially the amount of maintenance they require), same goes for piquet waistcoats. It's a shame, but we can't really expect someone on an orchestra members salary to own several dress shirts and waistcoats and spend half their lives starching washing and starching the various accoutrements. In much the same way that, with my job (which requires me to wear a WWII uniform), despite the fact I'm a re-enactor and do have the required items, for practical purposes I have to wear modern shirts, slightly incorrect trousers, etc.

 

[avedwards]

Perhaps my suggestion of the orchestra wearing black tie would be more viable then. Turndown collars are quite acceptable, as are soft fronted machine washable shirts. Studs need not be worn either, as mother of pearl buttons or fly front shirts where the buttons are hidden are acceptable. All in all it would allow the orchestra to look elegant and sartorially correct without being impractical.

 

[Qirrel]

I think I can forgive turndown collars - I can't see a detachable wing collar being very practical, digging in on violinists and I can see studs affecting the brass and woodwind sections. And, considering the frequency they'd need to wear it I can't see wearing a true white tie shirt almost daily is going to be financially viable (especially the amount of maintenance they require), same goes for piquet waistcoats. It's a shame, but we can't really expect someone on an orchestra members salary to own several dress shirts and waistcoats and spend half their lives starching washing and starching the various accoutrements. In much the same way that, with my job (which requires me to wear a WWII uniform), despite the fact I'm a re-enactor and do have the required items, for practical purposes I have to wear modern shirts, slightly incorrect trousers, etc.

I do not blame them either. However, if one was the member of an orchestra and wanted to look the part, there are perfectly viable options that do not require starch, ex. some of the shirts from Darcy clothing. Also, clothing bought for work purposes is tax deductible in many countries.

 

[Cobden]

I think the tradition of wearing white tie is too strong for it to change - white tie is the uniform of the orchestra. Black tie would be more practical (as, indeed, would t-shirts and jeans, not that I would condone such an abomination), but wouldn't be the done thing. Think of it in the same way as police uniforms in England and Wales. The uniform becomes more practical over the years, but constables still wear an impractical helmet - without it, they wouldn't be recognisable as what they are - even if the T shirt, stab vest and combat trousers they now (well, Sussex Police, at least) wear clash rather with the it!

I do not blame them either. However, if one was the member of an orchestra and wanted to look the part, there are perfectly viable options that do not require starch, ex. some of the shirts from Darcy clothing. Also, clothing bought for work purposes is tax deductible in many countries.

I think several £60 shirts is rather pushing it. Especially, in the UK, work clothes aren't tax deductable (uniforms are, if they have to be bought, but white tie wouldn't count). Having a go at leaders, dignataries, and those who need to set an example and should know or be advised better is fair enough...but some bloke who happens to play the violin so well that he lands himself in a large orchestra and, by tradition, is required to wear one is a rather different kettle of fish

 

[dhermann1]

Don't kid yourself, a player in a top rank orchestra, like LA, makes a very nice salary. Average salary at LA is $143,000.

http://www.icsom.org/settlement/laphil.html

 

[Cobden]

Don't kid yourself, a player in a top rank orchestra, like LA, makes a very nice salary. Average salary at LA is $143,000.

http://www.icsom.org/settlement/laphil.html

I'd still rather see an orchestra that picks it's members for their musical talent rather then their sartorial savvy...

In any case, in London, it's usually £25-40,000; may sound a lot, but you do have to live in London or the commuter belt, in which one is required to sell a kidney to rent a one bedroom flat

 

[avedwards]

I think the tradition of wearing white tie is too strong for it to change - white tie is the uniform of the orchestra. Black tie would be more practical (as, indeed, would t-shirts and jeans, not that I would condone such an abomination), but wouldn't be the done thing. Think of it in the same way as police uniforms in England and Wales. The uniform becomes more practical over the years, but constables still wear an impractical helmet - without it, they wouldn't be recognisable as what they are - even if the T shirt, stab vest and combat trousers they now (well, Sussex Police, at least) wear clash rather with the it!

I do recall the orchestra wearing black tie with white dinner jackets several years ago (white DJs being acceptable for musicians in this country), when they still had the American conductor. They looked extremely elegant and I can imagine the regular length jackets and ability to wear turndown collars was also quite practical. I hope they're picked for musical abilities too (and given how well they play I'd imagine that's the case ), but couldn't the orchestra have a dress code similar to a school uniform so they don't have to waste much thought to what they.

The police helmets do have one useful function - making the wearer look more authoritative. In Staffordshire the bobbies wear shirts and ties with the helmets, though they wear stab proof high visibility vests over this. It probably helps that they can expect very little physical action when on patrol as Stafford's a relatively safe area. Nottingham's a different story altogether as police have to dress more practically meaning no helmets and bullet proof vests and firearms instead.

 

[Fifty150]

(white DJs being acceptable for musicians in this country)

Let's not turn this into a racial issue. We all know where that can lead.

 

[avedwards]

Let's not turn this into a racial issue. We all know where that can lead.

Excuse me?

I simply was referring to the fact that white coloured dinner jackets are not usually worn within the UK as they're considered summer wear, and since the UK has a relatively temperate climate tradition dictates that a black dinner jacket is worn all year round, unlike the US or the tropics where a white dinner jacket can be worn. My point was that the tradition of not wearing a white dinner jacket in Britain does not apply to musicians in bands or orchestras; so a white DJ would be an appropriate, practical and elegant option for the London Symphony Orchestra.

I don't see how any of this relates to ethnicity as it's simply a matter or tradition and occupation...

 

[DocMustang]

Let's not turn this into a racial issue. We all know where that can lead.

I believe this poster was confused! Many, perhaps most, of us, read "white DJ" as white dinner jacket. However the statement "white DJs being acceptable for musicians in this country" could be misinterpreted as referring to "Disk Jockeys". Weather DJs of any ethnicity are acceptable AS musicians is surely debatable point.

On another note I wonder if musicians wearing "incorrect" formal wear is tied to the old practice of using "mismatched" items to distinguish a member of the serving class from "gentleman".