Formal Wear Primer

[Marc Chevalier]

Revisiting this, would a white pique waistcoat work with a shawl lapel dj or only a peak lapel?

It would work for both djs ... though a shawl lapel dj tends to look best with a cummerbund, not a waistcoat (black or white).


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[Evan Everhart]

Oh, and on a related note, I've kind of fallen in love with this hat to pair with the coat for photo purposes. I like that, while it's still a top hat, it's removed from the stereotype of the stodgy tycoon or a Dickensian Christmas caroler.

Actually, this is an incorrect assertion sir, I must make a dissenting comment here; the top hat which you've shown is actually an informal sort of top hat not only for the material from which it has been crafted, but also for the fact that it is what is generally referred to as a "John Bull" top hat which is considered more informal, generally speaking and this hat was actually at its height towards the mid-"Dickensian" period. The hat was felt to be appropriate for day-wear and such in the city and perhaps also for country wear if not in black, but it was most certainly not felt to be appropriate for evening-wear or full-formal-wear. If you wish to look as good as possible, might I suggest that you wear a top-hat which is historically contemporaneous with your tails? I assume that you are holding an evening wedding and that this is why you've opted for tails instead of Morning-Dress or some such....Anyhow, any top-hat which is to be worn with full-formal-evening-dress, ought to be made up of either silk, or beaver fur. Anyhow, I hope that you have a wonderful wedding and that it meets your expectations. Salutations and the best of luck sir!

 

[Evan Everhart]

I love this shot of AM but mostly he looked a bit too stiff; certainly well dressed and correct but a touch too stiff. [huh]

How is that stiff? I look and dress rather like that over-all almost all of the time. There's nothing particularly stiff in his pose when one considers that he has his hands tucked into pockets which must cause one to bend one's arms rather above the usual level to insert one's hands into them....His clothing's not stiff, what is stiff here? I don't get it. He's even wearing sporting clothes instead of a business suit or a leisure suit or Morning wear. What is stiff? I seriously don't get this comment.

 

[Richard Warren]

Revisiting this, would a white pique waistcoat work with a shawl lapel dj or only a peak lapel?

I don't know if it works, but I have worn a white vest with shawl collar on the rare occasions I wear a wing collar (mostly as a last resort when I discover at the last minute my turn down collar shirts are in no condition to be worn). Its not very conspicuous since the jacket and vest line up so that you don't see the vest unless the jacket in unbuttoned.

 

[Richard Warren]

As for the groomsmen's tuxes, the tenative idea was white shawl lapel dinner jackets and pleated turndown collars with black bow ties and muted blue cummerbunds (of a hue similar to those featured in the "alternative cummerbund" photo at Black Tie Guide). So the only divergence planned for the groomsmen would be the cummerbunds. My concern is that the more "old fashioned" tailcoat and Victorian style gown would contrast/clash too much with the more "modern" white dinner jackets.



Thanks for the feedback, everyone; keep it coming!

I kind of go against the idea that the groomsmen should be dressed uniformly. I think the idea of formal dress is that each individual dress within the limits of the style, but not exactly the same. So one might have peak lapels, one shawl, and another double breasted. I think it would be good even if a groomsman wears a modern iteration of the type, as long as it is all black and white, even white jackets if the weather and season are right.

Precisely because it will memorialized in pictures, you want your dress to be as traditional as possible, so that 30 years from now you do not look at your wedding picture and say to yourself "what a goof I was" (I have experience with this.)

 

[Orgetorix]

Revisiting this, would a white pique waistcoat work with a shawl lapel dj or only a peak lapel?

My instinct is that it'd only work with a peak lapel. Since it's a loan element from white-tie, seems like you'd want the rest of your outfit to be as formal as possible. Which would indicate a peak lapel jacket, in my mind. The lesser formality of a shawl jacket seems to call for a cummerbund, or maybe a black waistcoat.

 

[Tomasso]

How is that stiff? What is stiff? I seriously don't get this comment.

I was not referring to the photo that I posted .........

I love this shot of AM

 

[MisterGrey]

I kind of go against the idea that the groomsmen should be dressed uniformly. I think the idea of formal dress is that each individual dress within the limits of the style, but not exactly the same. So one might have peak lapels, one shawl, and another double breasted. I think it would be good even if a groomsman wears a modern iteration of the type, as long as it is all black and white, even white jackets if the weather and season are right.

Precisely because it will memorialized in pictures, you want your dress to be as traditional as possible, so that 30 years from now you do not look at your wedding picture and say to yourself "what a goof I was" (I have experience with this.)

I was considering doing different styles for each of the guys, but ran into another thread here where I recall the idea (not mine, specifically, but the notion of groomsmen in different styles of DJ) being very harshly frowned upon. The original idea was that they represent vastly different body types: Two are over 6'2 and thin as twigs; one is about 5'10 with the physique of a body builder; and my brother's slightly over 5'4 with a broad upper body and narrower waist.

 

[Charlie Huang]

So, for my own questions now.

I recently won this tailcoat on eBay.

It's flawless except for a small "run" 3/4 of the way down the left lapel, no thicker than a length of thread and about 1/5 to 2 inches in length. As you can see in the picture, it's not visible unless you're right on top of it, at a certain angle, and looking for it. So I consider this a real steal, and ready for wear.

This tailcoat is amazing IMHO! And it has shawl lapels which is a nice early style that is rare today.

I'm getting married in '11, and am planning on wearing it. My problem, now, is determining what to do with the groomsmen. My fiancee and I would like the aesthetic to be classic but also timeless, with some minor wiggle room to express our own eccentricity (she's a Russian Literature major; I'm a psychology major and struggling writer; and the groomsmen are my brother and his folk-rock band).

The two definites are her in a Victorian-inspired "prairie" style wedding gown, and me in the tailcoat. One idea had been white dinner jackets and cummerbunds, but there's the dual concern of the drastic disparity between the ultra-formal tailcoat and the semi-formal white jacket look, and that it would appear to be a weirdo clashing of different time periods.

Has anyone got any suggestions?

If you wear the white tie, your groomsmen ought to wear the same of black tie with a black DJ (with shawl lapels), etc. White DJs would clash.

Oh, and on a related note, I've kind of fallen in love with this hat to pair with the coat for photo purposes. I like that, while it's still a top hat, it's removed from the stereotype of the stodgy tycoon or a Dickensian Christmas caroler.

Erm, you should read this before throwing your money away:

http://charlesrupertdomeki.wordpress.com/2009/05/15/guide-to-buying-a-top-hat/

 

[dhermann1]

And now for something completely different . . .

OK, guys, check this out. Here's my dad, at the right, looking like Paul Anka, around 1936 age maybe 19, as far as I can figure. Note the habille of the Great Turbini! At no time do his hands leave his arms! I have no idea what the story behind this picture is, but I'm really digging the magician's outfit. Peak lapel tail coat, with what looks like a red cummerbund, can't tell what's around his neck. Let's not even try to guess what he's doing. I suppose we can take this as a bench mark for PROPER attire for a 1930's prestidigitator. lol

 

[MisterGrey]

Erm, you should read this before throwing your money away:

http://charlesrupertdomeki.wordpress.com/2009/05/15/guide-to-buying-a-top-hat/

It's a very well written and researched guide, but the author's definition of "quite affordable" is vastly different than mine. If I can find something nice on eBay I'll snatch it up, but £165 (about $270, aka "about what a part-time waiter makes in between his classes") is more than I'd ever spend on any hat, let alone one which I'll definitely wear once and, hopefully, get the opportunity to wear down the road. I just really liked the unconventionality of the "Squat Mad Hatter," but upon further consideration (and the advice of various folks here, yourself included), I'll probably be refraining from a hat purchase, barring a steal on eBay.

I am glad to know, though, that I have a nice tailcoat on my hands; I'd never planned on owning one, and this purchase was rather last-minute, spur-of-the-moment, and made without knowledge of what constituted a classy tailcoat. So I'm glad to know my shot-in-the-dark was a hit!

 

[Charlie Huang]

In that case go for an opera hat (satin or grosgrain). They can be had vintage for as little as £30 on Messrs. E. Bay.

 

[MisterGrey]

I'll have my eye open! Thank you for the information; I hadn't realized that you'd written the guide to which you linked. I'm very impressed with your level of knowledge and research on the topic. Should I ever need any information on top hats in the future, I know exactly where to go!

 

[Richard Warren]

Mr. Grey,

In an after the fact effort to justify my own anti-uniform predilections, I did a search and found this, which might have something of interest for you:

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/Tutorials/AntongiavanniWEDDINGATTIRE.htm

 

[dhermann1]

"This distinction goes back to pre-industrial age. Before there were cars, there were horses, and horses smell. Gentlemen were expected not bring that smell into the house and especially the dining room. Thus was born the concept of “dressing for dinner,” and hence evening clothes. "
I didn't know this! Worth the read for this alone. Makes perfect sense.

 

[MisterGrey]

Thanks for the link!

In looking at vintage wedding photos through Google's image search, a trend I've noticed is that men were often photographed holding their gloves in one hand. I presume that they wore them at some point during the day/evening, and then took them off at some point, as opposed to simply holding a pair of gloves for the photo. At what point were the gloves put on/removed? Or were they actually just a photo accessory?

 

[Charlie Huang]

Which is the better lapel? Peak or notched?

Well, there's only one way to find out...

FIGHT!


(only Brits will get this...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np6gyUb0E7o

 

[Chasseur]

Oh Charlie that brings back memories of living in the UK...

 

[MisterGrey]

Would a tie other than pique "ruin" the outfit? As I've mentioned, we're on a budget, and an acquaintance of mine recently gave me a vintage (well, about 1980s) white silk bow tie; it just needs to be sent to the dry cleaners. I'd hate to invest in a tie I technically don't need, especially as I'll probably only be wearing it once, anyway.

 

[Tomasso]

we're on a budget.

How about something like this?