Fear of the feminine

[HadleyH]

I was thinking more along the lines of the Chris/Pat skits on Saturday Night Live. Chris and Pat were getting married, and nobody knew who was the bride and who was the groom.

Who is Chris and Pat, Paisley? Never heard of them [huh]

 

[Rosa Moline]

I proudly describe myself as a girly-girl. I don't over do it with a lot of ruffles and stuff, but I am proud to be a woman and I revel in it. Yes, I wear jeans, but I also wear perfume and pearls with those jeans. I like nice frilly undies and lipstick. I combine everything nicely - quite feminine-ly, I think!

 

[Paisley]

Who is Chris and Pat, Paisley? Never heard of them [huh]

A couple of characters from the TV show Saturday Night Live. (It's a show where they do live comedy skits.) Chris and Pat were so androgenous that their coworkers couldn't tell their sex.

I, myself, am really not a girly-girl, but even I look and feel so much better when I sport a more feminine look.

 

[HadleyH]

A couple of characters from the TV show Saturday Night Live. (It's a show where they do live comedy skits.) Chris and Pat were so androgenous that their coworkers couldn't tell their sex.

I, myself, am really not a girly-girl, but even I look and feel so much better when I sport a more feminine look.

Oh I see now what you mean Paisley! Thanks for that.
I'm not a girly-girly-girly girl myself lol lol but hey, I can certainly appreciate the difference between boys and girls!!!

 

[Matt Deckard]

I love all these responses and it tells me so much. I myself can't think of another forum where a topic like this can be discussed. This is the place where traditional femenine roles are discussed and discected and sometimes looked a t with nostalgia and other times looked at with the attittude of, 'that's just the way I am'. People are different.

As a society we are still adjusting to the differences in gender roles. Defacto standards have changed. It's hard to upkeep the look of the classic steriotypical office gal in the office and that's not needed anyway. As a guy I obviously like the look of a gal gussied up. I don't see it as a weakness though I understand how hard it is for her to put that all together at times -- it's no necessary nowadays, though it's not something that detracts. In fact at times I think it is very powerful. There is a clear difference in femininety and masculinety and and think that differene being blurred is what makes some women think more heavily when they get dressed in the morning. It's still not as easy as it is for the guy. We have the shirt and trousers and belt and shoes. We can open the door or not open the door for the lady (Fedora lounge rule dictates you always open the door). We usually drive and offer to pay. We don't have to shave off that 5 day beard if we don't want to shave it off. We pull a comb through the hair and it's fine. We can wear one pair of shoes for every outfit.

I went out with a gal who was sneaker shoes and jeans and sweatshirts all the time... even thogh that was her normal attire she still had to work twice as hard as the regular Joe to get ready for work in the morning. She was a true tomboy if that term still means something, though she knew how to put herself together when the need arose.

Anywho... great responses.

 

[Folly]

Does looking femenine really mean looking weak to you gals?

Not to me, no.

 

[Miss Lucy June]

jumping in

I realize this is a long thread, so I'm just jumping in and giving my 2 cents. I really like this discussion and the openess of the discussion board here because this is something I think about often and I'm not so sure people understand/agree with me.

I don't like to describe myself as an antifeminist, but well, that's what a true feminist would call me. But really its because I love being a woman. I think men and women were created differently for a reason. I don't <i>want</i> to be the same. I'm called anti-feminist and too old fashioned sometimes because today's society is all about equality equality equality. I think THAT is why women are sometimes scared of being feminine. It's like going against the grain of society.

I love being feminine because I enjoy the traditional gender role. I enjoy taking care of a man, creating things with my own hands, dressing pretty, being doted on, being taken care of. On that note, I love old fashioned chivalrous men who also understand the differences between a man and a woman.

You all obviously love being feminine, but I think the world is definitely scared to bring out their feminine side.

 

[pigeon toe]

I realize this is a long thread, so I'm just jumping in and giving my 2 cents. I really like this discussion and the openess of the discussion board here because this is something I think about often and I'm not so sure people understand/agree with me.

I don't like to describe myself as an antifeminist, but well, that's what a true feminist would call me. But really its because I love being a woman. I think men and women were created differently for a reason. I don't <i>want</i> to be the same. I'm called anti-feminist and too old fashioned sometimes because today's society is all about equality equality equality. I think THAT is why women are sometimes scared of being feminine. It's like going against the grain of society.

I love being feminine because I enjoy the traditional gender role. I enjoy taking care of a man, creating things with my own hands, dressing pretty, being doted on, being taken care of. On that note, I love old fashioned chivalrous men who also understand the differences between a man and a woman.

You all obviously love being feminine, but I think the world is definitely scared to bring out their feminine side.

Now honey, I am a "true" feminist and I would definitely say that the way you are does not make you anti-feminist at all! You definitely sound women positive, and I would say feminism is trying to amend the fact that society at large doesn't value the things you like to do, create, nurture, etc. (and they typically aren't valued because they are associated with women, and let's face it, on a societal scale, we aren't that valued). And any feminist that would say so, though they may have their own politics to back it up, is unfortunately part of the reason why the feminist movement has not succeeded -- because we can't unite!

The way I justify the more possibly problematic (at least in terms with my own personal feminism) aspects of femininity that I embrace, such as my interest in waist-training, love for wearing girdles and high heels, etc. is that it is my INFORMED choice. I read feminist theory and articles and various perspectives. I try to get to the root of why I want to do these things. And if it doesn't make me feel bad about myself or my status as a woman, then why should I hold myself back? Maybe feminist theory is not something you're into, but I feel as long as every woman isn't afraid to critique her own thought process and REALLY figure out why she likes traditional femininity, then it's a feminist choice to me.

There is definitely a power in the female sex. That's, however, very different from the female gender. I feel that a lot of what makes women powerful as people within their biology (which is so hard to really determine anyway, since society has trained us so much from the get go, and also, not all biological women identify as women, but I digress), has been taken away from us or perverted by the patriarchy. For instance, sexuality and how we choose to express it is something beautiful and powerful, but it has often become a source of shame or something in which our natural selves are never enough. I feel that institutional patriarchy (media, government, medical fields, etc.) have done this to women to take a source of power away from them and put it into the hands of men.

Anyway, I'll stop now! Can you all tell I'm loving my feminist theory class right now?

 

[Miss Lucy June]

reply

Now honey, I am a "true" feminist and I would definitely say that the way you are does not make you anti-feminist at all!

I think the reason I've been called anti-feminist is because I generally think women should be somewhat submissive to men. (Not like a slave, but a helpmate) And not because we're worth any less (I don't think that AT ALL) but because that's how it was designed. I appreciate hearing from a true feminist that I don't sound anti-feminist, because I really love being a woman!

Sorry if this is getting off topic from the original message!

 

[Kimberly]

I think the reason I've been called anti-feminist is because I generally think women should be somewhat submissive to men. (Not like a slave, but a helpmate) And not because we're worth any less (I don't think that AT ALL) but because that's how it was designed. I appreciate hearing from a true feminist that I don't sound anti-feminist, because I really love being a woman!

Sorry if this is getting off topic from the original message!

I wouldn't necessarily call it being submissive to men though. The helpmate theory would make sense biologically and would work both ways. It is obvious that men are the stronger sex (physically) than women are and they were designed that way to hunt, work, fight off prey, etc. Women were designed to bear and raise children, do more of the nurturing and tend to more of the domestic rituals in the relationship. I am speaking on biological terms of course and a lot of that has changed with modern times.

Speaking for myself, I would never be submissive to anyone. I earn my own money and own my own house, take care of all of the domestic chores and home repairs, etc and am fairly independent. That said, I have no problems cooking meals or taking care of a man in a relationship when he is sick. I would do that though because I wanted to and I cared for him, not because that is what society tells me to do. I think I agree with some of what you said, but not necessarily some of the terminology.

Good food for thought though.

 

[pigeon toe]

Kimberly, I feel exactly the same as you do.

Miss Lucy, I don't think what you're doing (cooking, cleaning, taking care and being taken care of, etc.) are submissive acts unless you want them to be submissive. Self-sacrificing, maybe, but submissive, not necessarily. Is there a reason why you think it's submissive or why you think that's better? I'm just curious.

In the beginning of my current relationship, which is also my first serious one, I used to think I was more comfortable being the more submissive one. Letting him make all the moves, decide where we should eat, who we should hang out with, etc. And that's where a lot of our problems grew from, because actually, I had the more naturally dominant personality instead of him! I was just so used to the idea of men being more aggressive/dominant that I wasn't really looking at the reality of the situation!

 

[Mojito]

I agree with Kimberly and Pigeon Toe that choosing to fulfill certain roles in a relationship doesn't make one submissive - it's a form of biological determinism that, although I don't necessarily share those views, is one way at looking how nature, nurture and/or God made us. Seeing the genders as having different roles doesn't mean one has to submit to the other.

There are many shades of feminism - it is only really 'Radical Feminism' that is hostile towards men and can be aggressive towards women who chose not to either ape male behaviour or seek something other than gender neutral clothing. Unfortunately, I've been told by some individuals who assume this is the only type of feminism that I can't be a feminist, as I wear lipstick, heels, and don't have hairy legs! Such an incredibly facile, reductive interpretation of what feminism is, but I've heard it from both Radical Feminists and people who consider themselves against the movement.

Cultural Feminism - just one of many forms this ideology takes - is not too dissimilar to what is being described here. Cultural Feminists believe that men and women have different strengths that these should be celebrated, including the nuturing side of women.

Personally, I don't straightjacket myself with any particularly dogmatic interpretation of the term, and don't subscribe rigidly to any form of feminist ideology. Feminism, to me, is about choice - whether that choice be to stay at home and raise children, to seek a career, to try to balance both, or to be a full time worker who does not have a family. It also encompasses freedom to chose what I wear!

 

[Miss Lucy June]

Miss Lucy, I don't think what you're doing (cooking, cleaning, taking care and being taken care of, etc.) are submissive acts unless you want them to be submissive. Self-sacrificing, maybe, but submissive, not necessarily. Is there a reason why you think it's submissive or why you think that's better? I'm just curious.

I think were ultimately saying the same thing, but I'm using words that are sort of outdated. I just believe in the woman as the helpmate, the man as the leader. The funny thing is, by nature, we, as women tend to want to lead, and men tend to want to be lead. haha.

I should watch how I use submissive, today it seems it has negative, uber religious, or sexual connotations. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse.

 

[NicolettaRose]

I know for me, I dress feminane everyday, whether it is in a modern dress or a vinatge dress.

 

[ferryengr]

I think were ultimately saying the same thing, but I'm using words that are sort of outdated. I just believe in the woman as the helpmate, the man as the leader. The funny thing is, by nature, we, as women tend to want to lead, and men tend to want to be lead. haha.

I should watch how I use submissive, today it seems it has negative, uber religious, or sexual connotations. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse.

Well said Miss Lucy June! It takes guts to speak your mind like you did - with so many quick judgements people tend to make. I do have to say I enjoyed and agreed with your comments. Thanks!

 

[Miss Lucy June]

Thank you, Ted!

 

[Foofoogal]

"You show me a man that acts like my grandfather did and I'd be willing to bet 1000:1 that he has a wife like my grandmother! "

Wow, I love this thread. I could write a book on this topic. My marriage is just like your grandparents. We have a very traditional marriage on purpose. He takes care of the outside and I take care of the inside. You will never see me mowing the lawn. We got married in mid 70s.
He adores me and I him. We were childhood sweethearts.
I came from a large family with lots of brothers which means I had tons of guys around me and I was a tomboy. Being a tomboy gave me lots of advantage over other girls. I honestly think like a man I believe.
When women in the 70s were like clones following the feminist I scratched my head. I seriously never could understand why women didn't want men to rule over them but were blindly dancing to the tune of the feminist without even thinking.
My honey is a quiet man and I am a talker. Many times people assume I wear the pants in the family. It is hilarious.
I wonder if anthropologist are studying all of this carefully. I went to the Smithsonian a few years back and they had a Rosie the Riveter type display room. It showed how the government was very instrumental in creating atmospheres or propaganda to get the women to go into the work force when men were in war and then reversed it the same way to get them all back home again in the 50s. I laughed again.
I watch the debacle unfold about rap music lately and it is amazing.
It is no only bad in music but look at the little girl clothing lately. No ruffles, nothing hardly but elvira clothing and/or cheap looking material. I think it is only to convince us to pay $50.00 for $5.00 worth of material horribly made that falls apart in 2 wks.
I was at a party once talking to a lady in her 70s back then in the 70s at the time everyone wanted to be anything but a homemaker. I asked her what she did and she hung her head with shame and actually told me nothing. She had raised 5 children and made gorgeous quilts. Right then and there I decided to march to my own drum. Period. This rant is for her. :eusa_clap

Since time began there have been good and bad women and men. How low can we go really. As I look at the lingerie hanging in the stores what is next to wear? Was the woman on the prairie the ultimate feminist? What happened to the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world?