Doctor.... Who? Spoilers! Really, don't read if ur not up to date.

[Edward]

Sounds like you're a series behind us, Seb.

 

[Seb Lucas]

If only it were so simple, Edward. Last season was notably deficient too. But this season with Peal Mackie (who showed some promise but failed to deliver, thanks to the writing) along a few seconds of David Bradley as an enervated Bill Hartnell was a sad waste. David did a passable Hartnell in that cute little docudrama but he's really no match for Bill, who was far more ebullient. Was it better than the season before? Maybe just a little bit. But the transition from really bad to pretty bad is not much of a journey. Can the Christmas Special salvage Capaldi's contribution to this moribund show?

 

[Edward]

If only it were so simple, Edward. Last season was notably deficient too. But this season with Peal Mackie (who showed some promise but failed to deliver, thanks to the writing) along a few seconds of David Bradley as an enervated Bill Hartnell was a sad waste. David did a passable Hartnell in that cute little docudrama but he's really no match for Bill, who was far more ebullient. Was it better than the season before? Maybe just a little bit. But the transition from really bad to pretty bad is not much of a journey. Can the Christmas Special salvage Capaldi's contribution to this moribund show?

Oh, I know - it's just amusing that while everyone else thinks it's something of a return to form, you hate it so much. (I've been there.... I was the oddball yelling at clouds over how awful Sherlock Series 3 was; only when series 4 was diabolical too did people start to admit it!).

I liked Bill a lot and I think she had more in her, but I've been expecting her death sicned the start of thed series as they had announced they were clearing the decks for the new showrunner. I did like that she really was turned to Cyberman, though the end bit with puddlegirl was naff, and should have been cut out. (It's readily apparent that Moffat's decent, earlier writing was, in part, down to the fact that there was someone over him to edit out his worst excesses. That, and 'Blink' - while good - has become simpyl vastly overrated in the years since its broadcast.)

I'm intrigued to see how they handle two versions of the Doctor. Capaldi is the first that shouldn't have been under the original 'twelve regens only' rule (Tennant regenerated once into himself again, so technically he was 10 and 11, Smith 12, Capaldi 13... but only if you don't count the War Doctor, making him 14), and the Original Doctor was, well, the original.... so we have two "firsts" together in that sense. I like the idea of the doctor spending his remaining hours alone with himself. I just hope they don't bring Bill back again in some naff way like they did with Clara. I liked Bill, but her story is done now. Finality, please.

I'd actually like to see the Doctor travel on his own for some time now. A lesbian and a male alien were a wodnerful change, though, from the young girl assistant mooning over the Doctor rut that it had fallen into. I do hope that Chibnall has the cahones to cast somebody good again (Capaldi is a fine actor, and can't be blamed for the large chunks of his tenure where he's simply been given substandard material to try to work with) rather than bowing to commercial pressure to cast some popular young kid that can sell action figures. I'll be very surprised if they do make the Doctor female. What would it add that hasn't already been explored with Missy? I don't mind the idea if there's a good story reason for it, but it would be stupid to do it for the sake of it. Still better than Kris Marshall, of course.

 

[Formeruser012523]

Well now, the season finale was interesting.

Probably 1st showing up to say "It's okay, you can regenerate into a woman now."

I'll be shocked if it doesn't happen after lines like "The future is female?"; "One can only hope."

Seems they've been preparing the audience for some time. Didn't Moffat hand pick Chibnal? I would love to think someone was over him, pulling the strings, but this season did seem like a mess. But that's probably just the horribleness of season 4 of Sherlock clouding my judgment. Ugh.

 

[LizzieMaine]

As far as future companions go, I think the best companion-Doctor match ever was the Second Doctor and Jamie, and they've never really tried to do that again -- an older male Doctor and a young, impetuous male companion who have a close father-son relationship. "Oh, aye."

As far as what to expect from One v.3 in the Christmas special I hope they did go back and actually watch some of the Hartnell episodes to get a good handle on how he should be written. The First Doctor's crotchetyness after his first couple of stories was written largely as a put-on rather than him actually *being* crotchety, and if all he does in the coming episode is stand around clutching his lapels and calling Twelve "dear boy" I'm going to be very annoyed.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Oh, I know - it's just amusing that while everyone else thinks it's something of a return to form, you hate it so much. (I've been there.... I was the oddball yelling at clouds over how awful Sherlock Series 3 was; only when series 4 was diabolical too did people start to admit it!).

I liked Bill a lot and I think she had more in her, but I've been expecting her death sicned the start of thed series as they had announced they were clearing the decks for the new showrunner. I did like that she really was turned to Cyberman, though the end bit with puddlegirl was naff, and should have been cut out. (It's readily apparent that Moffat's decent, earlier writing was, in part, down to the fact that there was someone over him to edit out his worst excesses. That, and 'Blink' - while good - has become simpyl vastly overrated in the years since its broadcast.)

I'm intrigued to see how they handle two versions of the Doctor. Capaldi is the first that shouldn't have been under the original 'twelve regens only' rule (Tennant regenerated once into himself again, so technically he was 10 and 11, Smith 12, Capaldi 13... but only if you don't count the War Doctor, making him 14), and the Original Doctor was, well, the original.... so we have two "firsts" together in that sense. I like the idea of the doctor spending his remaining hours alone with himself. I just hope they don't bring Bill back again in some naff way like they did with Clara. I liked Bill, but her story is done now. Finality, please.

I'd actually like to see the Doctor travel on his own for some time now. A lesbian and a male alien were a wodnerful change, though, from the young girl assistant mooning over the Doctor rut that it had fallen into. I do hope that Chibnall has the cahones to cast somebody good again (Capaldi is a fine actor, and can't be blamed for the large chunks of his tenure where he's simply been given substandard material to try to work with) rather than bowing to commercial pressure to cast some popular young kid that can sell action figures. I'll be very surprised if they do make the Doctor female. What would it add that hasn't already been explored with Missy? I don't mind the idea if there's a good story reason for it, but it would be stupid to do it for the sake of it. Still better than Kris Marshall, of course.

In relation to regenerations - who says Hartnell was the first? This is a more recent addition to the myth, isn't it? In the Brain of Morbius we see that the Doctor has has several lives before Hartnell's doctor. I always assumed that Hartnell was the first incarnation to steal a Tardis and travel. Also didn't the Timelords give the Doctor another 12 lives back in one of Tennant's stories?

Writing notwithstanding,I am not sure Capaldi was ever the right casting for the role. I know people love Capaldi and he is a 'character' but for me he never really inhabited the role - it was always Capaldi doing a version of the Doctor. It felt self-conscious. Curiously I think Matt Smith clicked with the character much better even when the writing was abysmal. Everything about Capaldi should work - lovely to have an older bloke with some gravitas again but I just felt Capaldi played the Doctor as gravitas in search of a character.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I loved Smith just because he was so damn weird -- he really did seem like an alien, in the way few Doctors ever had. I had high expectations for Capaldi, and I liked the way they made him so icy and remote during his first series -- a logical contrast to what Eleven had been, reacting to all the personal losses he'd experienced. But the whole "Rock 'n' Roll Space Dad" thing from Series 9 lost me -- it didn't seem a logical progression for the character at all, and I was glad to see less of it this year.

 

[Seb Lucas]

"Rock 'n' Roll Space Dad" that's very funny. Yes, Capaldi tried various ways to make the character work for him, none of which felt convincing. Not sure I've never seen an actor fail in playing the Doctor (with the possible exception of Peter Davison). Eccleston, Tennant, Smith - they all inhabited the Doctor character almost immediately. With Capaldi, I kept having to say, 'he's new give him a chance'... three years later I was still saying that. Sonic Sunglasses and an electric guitar didn't help. It's like Capaldi kept trying to find ways of making the Doctor more like him rather than the other way around.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Capaldi's major problem in the role is a lack of energy. Tennant & Smith brought the Doctor into the 21st century with a sort of childish enthousiasm (which didn't exclude moments of gravitas) which pulled us into the show & left us wanting more. Watching Capaldi's Doctor is like being trapped in a time warp & forced to watch an amateur theatrical society's dress rehearsal for a modern interpretation of shakespeare, over & over again. It's a fate worse than being "exterminated" by the Daleks.
Jon Pertwee, Tom Baker, Tennant & Matt Smith are really the only memorable Doctors. You don't need a good actor to play him but they have to have a certain eccentricity to attract our attention. Unfortunately, Capaldi is about as interesting as an insurance salesman......which may, make him memorable too but as the worst Doctor, a position currently held by Eccleston.

 

[Edward]

Probably 1st showing up to say "It's okay, you can regenerate into a woman now."

I'll be shocked if it doesn't happen after lines like "The future is female?"; "One can only hope."

.

Far, far too heavy a hint. It has all the classic hallmarks of one of Moffat's "me so clever" red herrings. That's why I don't think it's likely.

Unless thry go really leftfield and puddlegirl is the regen. Which would be beyond stupid, of course.

In relation to regenerations - who says Hartnell was the first? This is a more recent addition to the myth, isn't it? In the Brain of Morbius we see that the Doctor has has several lives before Hartnell's doctor. I always assumed that Hartnell was the first incarnation to steal a Tardis and travel.

Vague memory suggests yes. They've played fast and loose with it over the years of course.

Also didn't the Timelords give the Doctor another 12 lives back in one of Tennant's stories?

Yes, they did. Clumsily written and in the context of a real nadir of an episode, but it was always going to happen. No popular show will wind itself up for the sake of its own perceived mythology.

Iirc, it was the Master who hit 13 first and then had to steal another body to take over. There'll be some explanation to it i'm sure. Doesn't really matter if well written.

I loved Smith just because he was so damn weird -- he really did seem like an alien, in the way few Doctors ever had. I had high expectations for Capaldi, and I liked the way they made him so icy and remote during his first series -- a logical contrast to what Eleven had been, reacting to all the personal losses he'd experienced. But the whole "Rock 'n' Roll Space Dad" thing from Series 9 lost me -- it didn't seem a logical progression for the character at all, and I was glad to see less of it this year.

Smith was great in that regard. Very much shafted by poor writing, as was Capaldi for most of his tenure. Really felt for him, having not only to stake his professional opinion on delivering rubbish like the guitar and sunglasses episodes, but that it was also helping ruin something he loved as a kid.... Tough job.

"Rock 'n' Roll Space Dad" that's very funny. Yes, Capaldi tried various ways to make the character work for him, none of which felt convincing. Not sure I've never seen an actor fail in playing the Doctor (with the possible exception of Peter Davison). Eccleston, Tennant, Smith - they all inhabited the Doctor character almost immediately. With Capaldi, I kept having to say, 'he's new give him a chance'... three years later I was still saying that. Sonic Sunglasses and an electric guitar didn't help. It's like Capaldi kept trying to find ways of making the Doctor more like him rather than the other way around.

There's never been nor never will be an actor who could have worked well the rubbish Moffat spewed out.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

@Edward Hard to read between the lines but would we be right in presuming you strongly dislike Steven Moffat ?

 

[LizzieMaine]

Moffat seems to be a victim of his own impulses. He's capable of some excellent work -- I *loved* "The Eleventh Hour," which is the best introduction of a new Doctor that I've seen (and I've seen all of them, even the animated reconstruction of "Power of the Daleks"), and there were some lovely moments in Capaldi's first episode as well. I think Moffat is quite good at setting up promising storylines -- where he falls short is in bringing them to a satisfying conclusion.

The way the whole River Song storyline was set up is another good example -- the whole idea of "timelines meeting in reverse order" was intriguing, but it ended up making very little sense at all in the way it finally worked out, and got so confusing and convoluted that it had to be offputting to the casual viewer. I've been watching this show for close to forty years, and I had a hard time following it -- so I can't imagine what a mess it must've seemed to someone just starting out.

 

[Edward]

Moffat has nice ideas, but he keeps getting distracted by his apparent need to show us all how clever he thinks he is.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Yeah, I remember a bit last year where the Doctor was wearing plaid pants like those of the Second Doctor, and there was some interview or other where he strongly hinted that this was a clue of signficance for the future. And of course, it wasn't. He's trying so hard to create Internet Buzz that he litters the show with pointless red herrings as a substitute for actual depth in plotting.

 

[Seb Lucas]

[QUOTE="Edward, post: 2270976, member: 2930]
There's never been nor never will be an actor who could have worked well the rubbish Moffat spewed out.[/QUOTE]

That's too easy. As I said before, Smith had to act is some abysmal rubbish too but still managed to provide a coherent characterization of the Doctor. There are two separate problems with the Capaldi era. One is scripts; two is Capaldi. He never really manged to be anything but a man in costume and I would not place the blame of this at Moffat.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Capaldi's major problem in the role is a lack of energy. Tennant & Smith brought the Doctor into the 21st century with a sort of childish enthousiasm (which didn't exclude moments of gravitas) which pulled us into the show & left us wanting more. Watching Capaldi's Doctor is like being trapped in a time warp & forced to watch an amateur theatrical society's dress rehearsal for a modern interpretation of shakespeare, over & over again. It's a fate worse than being "exterminated" by the Daleks.
Jon Pertwee, Tom Baker, Tennant & Matt Smith are really the only memorable Doctors. You don't need a good actor to play him but they have to have a certain eccentricity to attract our attention. Unfortunately, Capaldi is about as interesting as an insurance salesman......which may, make him memorable too but as the worst Doctor, a position currently held by Eccleston.

Much like your hypothesis except that for me Eccleston is probably my favourite of the reboot Doctors.

 

[Steve27752]

It's been a load of 'Old Tosh' since it was re booted..........If the original Dr is back then Susan (his grand daughter) will be his assistant.

 

[Formeruser012523]

Moffat seems to be a victim of his own impulses. He's capable of some excellent work -- I *loved* "The Eleventh Hour," which is the best introduction of a new Doctor that I've seen (and I've seen all of them, even the animated reconstruction of "Power of the Daleks"), and there were some lovely moments in Capaldi's first episode as well. I think Moffat is quite good at setting up promising storylines -- where he falls short is in bringing them to a satisfying conclusion.

The way the whole River Song storyline was set up is another good example -- the whole idea of "timelines meeting in reverse order" was intriguing, but it ended up making very little sense at all in the way it finally worked out, and got so confusing and convoluted that it had to be offputting to the casual viewer. I've been watching this show for close to forty years, and I had a hard time following it -- so I can't imagine what a mess it must've seemed to someone just starting out.

Have to agree. I loved Smith & Alex Kingston. He was such a good actor I actually believed that he was the old alien he claimed to be. Eleven meeting little Amelia the way he did was what made me start watching the show again (after Tennant's abysmal run ).

Now that I think about it Moffat has never really "killed" any companion officially. Has the audience ever seen an onscreen death? I mean, a real, FINAL death of a character? Besides the Doctor, of course.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Much like your hypothesis except that for me Eccleston is probably my favourite of the reboot Doctors.

Eccleston certainly took the role to heart & wasn't lacking in enthousiasm but I think he was too ordinary (& most of the storylines just plain ridiculous) not to mention that a Timelord born on Gallifrey endowered with a Salford accent did strain one's credulity a smidgen.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Eccleston certainly took the role to heart & wasn't lacking in enthousiasm but I think he was too ordinary (& most of the storylines just plain ridiculous) not to mention that a Timelord born on Gallifrey endowered with a Salford accent did strain one's credulity a smidgen.

Well no stranger than Sylvester McCoy's or Capaldi's Scottish accents or John Pertwee and Tom Baker's RP tones. Who would have thought Timelords would sound like English voice over guys?

It's interesting to read this - people either don't like Tennant, or Smith or Capaldi or Eccleston - or all of them. Fair enough.