Do you count 1945 through 1963 as part of the Golden Era?

[CaramelSmoothie]

I remember going to the Juneteenth Blues Festival in Houston a number of years ago (Albert Collins was headlining that night) and being the only white guy in the crowd of about 5,000. I also frequent local jazz clubs with a saxophone-playing friend of mine, and I'm usually the only white guy in the crowd. It always makes me sort of a celebrity, which is an interesting feeling.

It's probably because the event was tied to Juneteenth perhaps? Juneteenth celebrations tend to have mixed crowds but are usually majority Black, I wonder what the racial makeup of the crowd would be if it was a standalone Blues festival.

Were you wearing a hat as well?

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

I believe that some, not all, of the people who apologize, et al. are truly just trying to be nice and sensitive in a culture that has devoted much discussion to subtle slights and subtext of comments. Because of that, some well-intended people over compensate because they've picked up from our general cultural that there are all these subtle racist / sexist / inappropriate comments that they want to make sure they aren't making. It just isn't simple anymore (never was, we just have our own new complexities).

I can agree with this. I especially like that you added in the last sentence stating that it has never been simple. Political correctness has always been around in all countries at all times. It's just that some people act as if it is a new development in the past 40 or so years. If you "offended" the wrong party you could be beaten, lynched, homes firebombed, etc.... Just look at North Korea for an example of this. No matter who it's coming from though, it's all wrong.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

I believe the good goal is a race-blind society, but how can we expect that today when we actively promote race identity / discussion / group achievement, etc? I have learned a lot from Asian appreciation events (as I am not Asian) - am I suppose to turn that knowledge and impressions off when I meet an Asian person. I think I should and should form my opinion purely on his or her actions, but then what is the point of those events?

Race blind society is a pipe dream, the country was built on race identity/discussion/group achievement, all for the purpose of financial gain. The reason is that people have eyes to see others different than themselves. The settlers recognized that the Native Americans were different so they created a racial divide between themselves and the Natives to get more land. Caucasians didn't pioneer this tactic, it has gone on since mankind has existed but more on a tribal level than with skin tone, which can be seen on every continent. You can't build a country on the idea that a racial hierarchy exists, keep it going for several hundred years and expect the masses to become "race blind" in the last 50, lol. It's already ingrained and now has spread to the rest of the world. But I do see where you are coming from, I just know it's not a reality because people have eyes and cultural differences are real.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

The original question "Do you count 1945 through 1963 as part of the Golden Era?". My opinion, not sure. Now that I think about it, I don't know the exact definition of the "Golden Era" despite me being a member of this board for 4 years. I just assumed that Golden Era meant 20s-the end of the 40s. Does anyone have a solid definition of what the Golden Era means and what it entails?

 

[LizzieMaine]

The original question "Do you count 1945 through 1963 as part of the Golden Era?". My opinion, not sure. Now that I think about it, I don't know the exact definition of the "Golden Era" despite me being a member of this board for 4 years. I just assumed that Golden Era meant 20s-the end of the 40s. Does anyone have a solid definition of what the Golden Era means and what it entails?

I don't think there *is* any one definition -- I'd never heard the term myself until I came here, and to be honest, the more I hear it the less I like it, because I think it trivializes the complexity of the period.

My own specific interest is in the Roosevelt Era -- 1933-1945 -- as being, objectively speaking, the most interesting period in 20th Century history, as well as, personally speaking, the period from which my own childhood values were drawn: my parents were children of that era, and my grandparents, who helped raise me, were adults for the entire span of that period. They were defined by the values of that period, and those values, in turn, were passed on to me. I don't care if people call it "golden" or not -- as far as I'm concerned, it's the default Era. And I don't consider the postwar period as part of that era -- it had an entirely different mindset.

Others will define it on the basis of their own values and interests -- some might consider it the Golden Age of Hats, or of Art Deco, or of Movies, or of Comic Books, or of whatever. That's up to them. Everybody's going to have a different answer to that question.

 

[HudsonHawk]

It's probably because the event was tied to Juneteenth perhaps? Juneteenth celebrations tend to have mixed crowds but are usually majority Black, I wonder what the racial makeup of the crowd would be if it was a standalone Blues festival.

That's possible, but it used to be a big local event, a week long I think, so it wasn't like it was a "fringe" event. Sadly, it's one night now (the "festival", not Juneteenth)

Were you wearing a hat as well?

I probably was not, as 1) I had LOTS of thick, wavy hair then and liked to show it off (the girls went crazy over it), and 2) my style at the time was not what it is now. I usually am wearing one when I go to the local jazz clubs, and I enjoy that it's one of the few "scenes" where gentlemen still dress well when going out. As opposed to the jeans and tshirt crowd you see at most other places.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Race blind society is a pipe dream, the country was built on race identity/discussion/group achievement, all for the purpose of financial gain. The reason is that people have eyes to see others different than themselves. The settlers recognized that the Native Americans were different so they created a racial divide between themselves and the Natives to get more land. Caucasians didn't pioneer this tactic, it has gone on since mankind has existed but more on a tribal level than with skin tone, which can be seen on every continent. You can't build a country on the idea that a racial hierarchy exists, keep it going for several hundred years and expect the masses to become "race blind" in the last 50, lol. It's already ingrained and now has spread to the rest of the world. But I do see where you are coming from, I just know it's not a reality because people have eyes and cultural differences are real.

This is absolutely spot on. I just shake my head at people who will insist that race should simply be forgotten by this point. That's kind of hard when you've actually experienced Jim Crow laws, when you've experienced racial segregation, when you experienced discrimination...on both sides. I remember having a conversation with my father (the least racist person I know) and he reminded me "how can I simply ignore race when I grew up in the segregated deep south, and personally knew people who were born into slavery?" The last part shocked me. Will there ever be a time when we're "race blind"? I don't know. I hope. How long will it be? Again, I don't know, but I know it's absurd to think we should be there now.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

This is absolutely spot on. I just shake my head at people who will insist that race should simply be forgotten by this point. That's kind of hard when you've actually experienced Jim Crow laws, when you've experienced racial segregation, when you experienced discrimination...on both sides. I remember having a conversation with my father (the least racist person I know) and he reminded me "how can I simply ignore race when I grew up in the segregated deep south, and personally knew people who were born into slavery?" The last part shocked me. Will there ever be a time when we're "race blind"? I don't know. I hope. How long will it be? Again, I don't know, but I know it's absurd to think we should be there now.

Even if Jim Crow, slavery, etc...never happened there would STILL be an "us vs. them" mentality. Why? Because people have eyes and can see the evolutionary differences among human beings. By this I mean I can SEE that my skin is darker than some. I can SEE that some people have smaller eyes than some. I can SEE that some people have different hair color, eye color, hair texture. It is from this point on that humans group together based on these similarities to form a culture. On a smaller level, if you have a country where everybody shares the same features there is still infighting based on familial ties, cultural differences (east vs. west or north vs. south, this family vs. that family) so it makes no sense to fight against what comes naturally to humans. And that's okay, racial and cultural awareness is not a bad thing.

 

[Nobert]

The original question "Do you count 1945 through 1963 as part of the Golden Era?". My opinion, not sure. Now that I think about it, I don't know the exact definition of the "Golden Era" despite me being a member of this board for 4 years. I just assumed that Golden Era meant 20s-the end of the 40s. Does anyone have a solid definition of what the Golden Era means and what it entails?

I use "Golden Era" on this site as a shorthand so people will know what I mean, but my interests are actually more geared to the twenties and even the teens than the 30s-40s. I don't really see the point in drawing strict boundaries and saying "The Golden Era ends here...last chance for a good-looking suit for eight decades" (or whatever). Especially considering such a small sliver of human history. I'm sure a lot of people could think up other ages they might find more "Golden..." Hellenistic Greece? Italy under the Madiccis? The Age of Enlightenment? Name your ambrosia.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

I don't think there *is* any one definition -- I'd never heard the term myself until I came here, and to be honest, the more I hear it the less I like it, because I think it trivializes the complexity of the period.

My own specific interest is in the Roosevelt Era -- 1933-1945 -- as being, objectively speaking, the most interesting period in 20th Century history, as well as, personally speaking, the period from which my own childhood values were drawn: my parents were children of that era, and my grandparents, who helped raise me, were adults for the entire span of that period. They were defined by the values of that period, and those values, in turn, were passed on to me. I don't care if people call it "golden" or not -- as far as I'm concerned, it's the default Era. And I don't consider the postwar period as part of that era -- it had an entirely different mindset.

Others will define it on the basis of their own values and interests -- some might consider it the Golden Age of Hats, or of Art Deco, or of Movies, or of Comic Books, or of whatever. That's up to them. Everybody's going to have a different answer to that question.

Okay, I think I understand now. I guess I fall under the "Golden Age of Hats" line of thinking and to a certain extent overall fashion and architecture.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

I use "Golden Era" on this site as a shorthand so people will know what I mean, but my interests are actually more geared to the twenties and even the teens than the 30s-40s. I don't really see the point in drawing strict boundaries and saying "The Golden Era ends here...last chance for a good-looking suit for eight decades" (or whatever). Especially considering such a small sliver of human history. I'm sure a lot of people could think up other ages they might find more "Golden..." Hellenistic Greece? Italy under the Madiccis? The Age of Enlightenment? Name your ambrosia.

LOL!

It's funny you should mention those other time periods, because even though I wear vintage hats, I don't think I could ever be "that girl" who goes full on vintage in my everyday life, but I support people's right to do it. But I can't help but wondering what would happen if someone liked one of those ancient eras as many here like the 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s and decided to dress as they did back then could that be justified? Or what about those hoop skirts (don't know the technical name for it) that were so popular during the Civil War? Could a person decide that is their personal style and start wearing hoop skirts in this day and age because they identify more with that era in the same way that people here identify with the Golden Age? I guess my question is at what point in history should a modern person not dress the period? I hope this question makes sense as I am having a hard time articulating it, lol.

 

[Nobert]

Even if Jim Crow, slavery, etc...never happened there would STILL be an "us vs. them" mentality. Why? Because people have eyes and can see the evolutionary differences among human beings. By this I mean I can SEE that my skin is darker than some. I can SEE that some people have smaller eyes than some. I can SEE that some people have different hair color, eye color, hair texture. It is from this point on that humans group together based on these similarities to form a culture. On a smaller level, if you have a country where everybody shares the same features there is still infighting based on familial ties, cultural differences (east vs. west or north vs. south, this family vs. that family) so it makes no sense to fight against what comes naturally to humans. And that's okay, racial and cultural awareness is not a bad thing.

That sounds reasonable. I have an abiding interest in old comic strips and cartoons, that's really how I got into all this stuff in the first place. And let me tell you, it is nigh on impossible to find a depiction of someone of African decent in those old cartoons that is not a donut-lipped blackface caricature. To some extent, I think it's just endemic of humans to have a response: "you look different than me--ha, ha!" It's the fact that it's tied up in a society where the deck was so stacked against that type of person that they had no recourse to respond in kind.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I guess my question is at what point in history should a modern person not dress the period? I hope this question makes sense as I am having a hard time articulating it, lol.

I think there've always been people "outside their era," people I call "atavists." In my town in the 1930s there was a woman for whom the world stopped in the late 1880s -- she lived in an 1880s vintage house with all its original furnishings, and until the day she died she dressed in an 1880s style. The neighborhood kids were convinced she was a witch and steered clear of her, but she was otherwise unmolested.

I keep hoping the neighborhood kids will think I'm a witch, but I must be doing something wrong because they still let their damn dogs pee in my driveway.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Even if Jim Crow, slavery, etc...never happened there would STILL be an "us vs. them" mentality. Why? Because people have eyes and can see the evolutionary differences among human beings. By this I mean I can SEE that my skin is darker than some. I can SEE that some people have smaller eyes than some. I can SEE that some people have different hair color, eye color, hair texture. It is from this point on that humans group together based on these similarities to form a culture. On a smaller level, if you have a country where everybody shares the same features there is still infighting based on familial ties, cultural differences (east vs. west or north vs. south, this family vs. that family) so it makes no sense to fight against what comes naturally to humans. And that's okay, racial and cultural awareness is not a bad thing.

But none of those differences would matter had they not been used as a marker for discrimination. Differences in appearance only matter because we've used them as such, not the other way around. There is nothing inherent that pushes one way or another.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I keep hoping the neighborhood kids will think I'm a witch, but I must be doing something wrong because they still let their damn dogs pee in my driveway.

You need more cats.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Gorgeous boy! Mine are the same... anything that comes in gets sniffed, poked, rubbed on and evetually sat on. Every cat I've ever hung out with was guaranteed to want to sit on something - even if it's an a4 piece of paper on the floor, they'd rather sit on that than the carpet. I'd give a lot to hear their thoughts on what they're doing.

My understanding is that before Prince Louis joined the household he had a canine stepbrother who used to run him ragged. Now he leads a stress-free life.

 

[Edward]

On the other hand, though, most people don't realize that it didn't become customary for the President to meet with Olympians at the White House-- any Olympians -- until President Ford began the practice in 1976.



I think of this as the "Some Of My Best Friends Are (miniorities)" sort of prejudice, or the "You're different, you're not like the rest of them" sort. There are still plenty of people in the world who figure as long as they can point to their Cool Black Friend, their Sassy Gay Friend, Their Mouthy Working-Class Friend, or whatever, that they're automatically innocent of any sort of prejudice.

Oh, yes I hear you. The more common formulation of the same here is "I'm not racist but...", a colloquial phrase which indicates that the speaker is about to say something very racist indeed.

I have a couple of cats. I can assure you...they all think great thoughts.

"I wonder if there's food in the magic bowl. Maybe I should check...or maybe I should take a nap. Bowl? Nap? Bowl? Nap? Darn. Is that dirt on my left paw? I just cleaned that paw, how did dirt get there again? Come to think of it, I probably need to clean my behind, too. But I'll wait for the human to be entertaining company before I do that. What was that grinding noise in the kitchen? Was that the magic noise that makes food appear in the magic bowl? No…probably not. The human hasn’t reappeared through his portal…so it probably wasn’t the magic noise. I wonder if the human enjoyed that squirrel head I brought for him this morning. He didn’t seem very happy when he left, so maybe he didn’t find it. Crap. The magic bowl still looks empty. OK...then I’ll just sleep for a minute or two…."

AF

The lady and I sometimes speculate about what my cats are thinking. Greta is a sweet and innocent little tabby on the outside, but she swears like a trouper in our version... Marlene, her litter-sister, is an Anglo-German, diva version of her namesake. Mostly, they're sneering at "teh hoomins" for being inferior lifeforms, and wishing for opposable thumbs.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

That sounds reasonable. I have an abiding interest in old comic strips and cartoons, that's really how I got into all this stuff in the first place. And let me tell you, it is nigh on impossible to find a depiction of someone of African decent in those old cartoons that is not a donut-lipped blackface caricature. To some extent, I think it's just endemic of humans to have a response: "you look different than me--ha, ha!" It's the fact that it's tied up in a society where the deck was so stacked against that type of person that they had no recourse to respond in kind.

Very true. And as you know it wasn't just White on Black, "ethnic Whites" bore the brunt of stereotypes too. The drunk and criminal Irishman, the greaseball Italian, the greedy Jew....Now those groups are considered mainstream White with the exception of Jews, so that shows that even when among those with the same skin color there can be tension.

I think there've always been people "outside their era," people I call "atavists." In my town in the 1930s there was a woman for whom the world stopped in the late 1880s -- she lived in an 1880s vintage house with all its original furnishings, and until the day she died she dressed in an 1880s style. The neighborhood kids were convinced she was a witch and steered clear of her, but she was otherwise unmolested.

I keep hoping the neighborhood kids will think I'm a witch, but I must be doing something wrong because they still let their damn dogs pee in my driveway.

I remember you telling me about this woman in another thread. I remember asking you if the house was still standing but I forgot what your response was.

But none of those differences would matter had they not been used as a marker for discrimination. Differences in appearance only matter because we've used them as such, not the other way around. There is nothing inherent that pushes one way or another.

Correct. I guess it's too late to turn back now. Racial and cultural biases are too ingrained now so I don't see how it can be reversed.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Correct. I guess it's too late to turn back now. Racial and cultural biases are too ingrained now so I don't see how it can be reversed.

Well, I think it can, but not overnight. And by overnight, I mean within 50 or even 100 years, which is what I thought was your earlier point.

 

[GHT]

As for white people and the blues, it's no secret that rock n roll does not exist without it, particularly the syncopated rhythms, minor pentatonic scales and I-IV-V chord progressions that are the foundations of post-war "jump blues" and rock n roll. It's not surprising that old white guys love them both.

Big Joe Turner, the grand-daddy of Rock & Roll, a true legend, covered by many a white guy......................but, never bettered.