Dating Vintage Stetsons by Liner: A Field Guide

[barrowjh]

Weekender won on July 2, 2011, liner similar (identical) to T Rick's post #169

It has a dimensional brim, 2 3/8ths sides 2 5/8ths front/back.

The felt is fairly nice for a Royal Stetson, and I think someone indicated T Rick's was probably late 1970s - early 1980s, so I am suspecting this was likely from the period when Stevens was making Stetsons, as the felts I have run into from that time seem to be fairly nice - not stiff cardboard. Any ideas on the specific date of this hat?

 

[T Rick]

Weekender won on July 2, 2011, liner similar (identical) to T Rick's post #169

It has a dimensional brim, 2 3/8ths sides 2 5/8ths front/back.

The felt is fairly nice for a Royal Stetson, and I think someone indicated T Rick's was probably late 1970s - early 1980s, so I am suspecting this was likely from the period when Stevens was making Stetsons, as the felts I have run into from that time seem to be fairly nice - not stiff cardboard. Any ideas on the specific date of this hat?

I got a better idea of the date on mine, based on info from RLK. The info related to the union label that was on the back side of the rectangular size tag. I don't recall the specifics, but I'll find it. I have two rectangular size tag Open Roads, two different union labels, and there was a date range associated with each.

See if you have one of these labels, and I'll root out the information (saved somewhere) and post it up here when I find it.

 

[barrowjh]

T Rick, I have since figured out the Weekender is more recent than I suspected, as it is still in production! Google for Stetson Weekender hat and they are out there, price range $135 - $170. So, I picked up a 'new' used hat, extremely low milage, for under $30. I'm reasonably impressed with the felt, got no complaints. I gave it to a nephew on Saturday, so it is gone now.

 

[rlk]

Derby

 

[barrowjh]

Nice, a most collectible liner!

 

[mattface]

Here's the best liner shots I could get of this weekend's pickup. I gather that it's early to mid 40s based upon what I've already seen in this thread. looks like a whippet, but it doesn't have a model name anywhere and the ribbon is a bit wide @ 1 3/4", so I wonder wether it's not a little earlier, maybe '39 or '40?


royal stetson interior by mattface, on Flickr

royal stetson interior by mattface, on Flickr

royal stetson interior by mattface, on Flickr

royal stetson interior by mattface, on Flickr

royal stetson interior by mattface, on Flickr

My new (to me) 1940s Stetson Royal by mattface, on Flickr

 

[HatsEnough]

OK, correct me if I am wrong... but I thought we arrived on the thought that if you have a Stetson with a leaf in the upper left corner of the shield on the logo the hat had to be made after 1945 when they changed the logo from stars in the upper left corner to a leaf?

So, if that leather sweat has a leaf in the logo, then it is not from the late 30s. It was made after the mid 40s.

 

[mattface]

You may well be right, but I'm not sure what leaf you are talking about.

 

[HatsEnough]

You may well be right, but I'm not sure what leaf you are talking about.

I thought earlier in this thread it was ascertained that the leaf in the logo meant after the mid 1940s. Like I said, I may be wrong but I thought the more knowledgable guys were saying this.

 

[zetwal]

You may well be right, but I'm not sure what leaf you are talking about.

To date Stetsons, consider liner, sweatband, and size tag. See if this thread helps you with the sweatband.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?40021-Stetson-crest-dating&

 

[mattface]

To date Stetsons, consider liner, sweatband, and size tag. See if this thread helps you with the sweatband.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?40021-Stetson-crest-dating&

Thanks I'm not sure if that was informative or confusing, especially since I've got stars in the liner, and (that's a) leaf(?) in the liner crest, and script font, I'm thinking mid forties seems like my best guess. I kinda want a model name, but since I haven't got one I guess I'll just call it a Whippet.

 

[HatsEnough]

Thanks I'm not sure if that was informative or confusing, especially since I've got stars in the liner, and (that's a) leaf(?) in the liner crest, and script font, I'm thinking mid forties seems like my best guess. I kinda want a model name, but since I haven't got one I guess I'll just call it a Whippet.

As I recall, the guys were saying that for a period of years after the intro of the new logo with the leaf, hatters were using up the old stock of bands and liners. So, if there was a leaf on either the liner or the sweat it was late forties and later -- never earlier.

Oh, and I live by the motto that if'n it don't say "Whippet" anywhere in the hat... it ain't one.

 

[zetwal]

I kinda want a model name, but since I haven't got one I guess I'll just call it a Whippet.

You are free to call it whatever you wish. And the Lounge Police won't be knocking on your door anytime soon.

Enforcement issues aside, I myself wouldn't call it a Whippet. In my mind, if not marked Whippet by the manufacturer, it's not a Whippet. This discussion is not new, by the way. We have had it many times before with regard to Whippets, Open Roads, Stratoliners, Wanderers, and so on. Some hats, while they may resemble some particular model or another, just don't have a ready made name.

 

[barrowjh]

mattface, it is a delimma (hat model name) for all of us. The Whippet and the Playboy were both low-end hats; Royal Stetson was just rabbit fur, low end of the price range (significantly more expensive than wool, of course, but the lowest-priced fur felt offering). So, you can have a vintage hat that looks just like a Whippet, except its a Royal Deluxe (a step up the quality chain) with no model name, but the Whippet will command triple the value in an auction as compared to the Royal Deluxe, even though the Royal Deluxe is the better hat. I suspect that the use of model names in the lower-priced hats was intentional - the market segment that was buying that price point may have tended to be younger and more easily impressed with a catchy name, where the market segment willing to pay 10-20% more simply wanted to see a quality-level indicator to justify them past their buyer's remorse.

 

[mattface]

mattface, it is a delimma (hat model name) for all of us. The Whippet and the Playboy were both low-end hats; Royal Stetson was just rabbit fur, low end of the price range (significantly more expensive than wool, of course, but the lowest-priced fur felt offering). So, you can have a vintage hat that looks just like a Whippet, except its a Royal Deluxe (a step up the quality chain) with no model name, but the Whippet will command triple the value in an auction as compared to the Royal Deluxe, even though the Royal Deluxe is the better hat. I suspect that the use of model names in the lower-priced hats was intentional - the market segment that was buying that price point may have tended to be younger and more easily impressed with a catchy name, where the market segment willing to pay 10-20% more simply wanted to see a quality-level indicator to justify them past their buyer's remorse.

See I the only reason I need a names is so I can talk about it, after all, that's what names are for. I realize the marketing purposes behind the Whippet name both then and now, but I'm not selling this hat, so I'm really just looking for a way to talk about it primarily here. I don't need it to be 100% accurate, I just need you guys to know what I'm talking about. Now I realize some might say it can't be a Whippet if it doesn't say Whippet, and I'm no Stetson historian, and maybe some of you here are, but from what I can tell, Stetson made a lot of hats with the same name "whippet" for instance, that differed a lot more from each other than this hat does from say a 1940s whippet. For instance, if you buy a 1960s whippet it will have a stingy brim, if you buy a 2010 whippet it'll have a shorter tapered crown, lesser quality felt, but it'll still be a Whippet.

Now I really would like to know if this hat had a name, I'd like to know exactly when it was made, and how much they charged for it at Arioli's Men's shop, but from what I can tell no one really knows. Now some people say: "If it doesn't say whippet it isn't". but do those people really know? Do they know that Stetson didn't have a big pile of identical unfinished hats at the factory, and some of them got the Whippet hatband, and some which were sent to other Men's sores got no name, but were in every other way identical hats. It hasn't got a name, or if it has that name is apparently lost since no one remembers what it is. My hat may in fact be different from a Whippet, I think maybe the ribbon is a little wider than Whippets I've seen, maybe the felt is different, but I suspect "Royal quality" felt was the same across the range of hats that bore that name. So if some people are going to get bent out of shape if I call my hat (which is not for sale) a whippet, I ask them in particular, what should I call it? Because in the end all I'm really looking for is a common vernacular, so I don't have to keep referring to this hat as my Grey Stetson with the bound edge and one and three quarter inch ribbon and two and a half inch brim and diamond bash. See isn't that kinda unweildy? and I've been jealous of you guys all this time in the "What hat am I wearing today" thread with your pat easily identifiable names fort your hats, and finally I have a really cool vintage hat (which looks great on me I might add) and I don't know what to call it.

OK, I guess I can't really complain, because outside this forum, most of the rest of the world doesn't care what my hat is called and after all it DOES look great on me, and I only paid $6.42 for it. If it's not a whippet, maybe I'll just call it a mutt. ;-)

 

[barrowjh]

yuk, good laugh - no need to obsess about whether anyone is questioning integrity. Some might refer to a hat such as yours as a Whippet-like, or a wide-brim with a nice bound edge. There are so many variables - if it is old enough to fit in with the wide-brim Whippets that we tend to crave, then the liner should be stitched in. If it isn't, then maybe the hat has been refurbished (maybe more than once) and the sweat and liner are no longer the original. If a hat was worn a lot, and refurbished by a hatter selling Stetsons within just a few years, it could have a Stetson liner and sweat that are genuine but not the same as the original hat. Sometimes we just never know.

I quit bidding on the 'names' since I have a reasonable collection already, now I try to focus on condition and fur content, since any hat I buy would have to be better than one I already own in that color or why buy it? Except, sometimes, I just want some fur to play with and cannot lay off a nice hat that only needs a little work.

 

[mattface]

if it is old enough to fit in with the wide-brim Whippets that we tend to crave, then the liner should be stitched in.

It is stitched in very loosely with a very fine white thread. I don't know if that's how it was done, because I've never had a hat this old before, but it all looks original to me. If it'd been worn enough to require a replacement sweat, I'd think the sizing and restock # stickers would be in much worse shape or missing altogether. This one was worn, and it's got a few stains to show for it, but I don't think it was worn that much.

 

[HatsEnough]

If you like the hat, if you like the way it looks, wear it. It really doesn't matter if it is a "real" Whippet or not if all it is is a wearing hat for you.

It only matters when you try to sell it as a Whippet when there is nothing in the hat that says it is one. You could sell it as "Whippet-styled" or "Whippet-like" but without it actually saying Whippet somewhere in the hat, it would be unethical to sell it as a Whippet. That is why we keep saying it isn't a Whippet. It's called truth in advertising.

Still, like I said, if you have no interest in selling it, wear it in good health. Enjoy it.

 

[mattface]

If you like the hat, if you like the way it looks, wear it. It really doesn't matter if it is a "real" Whippet or not if all it is is a wearing hat for you.

It only matters when you try to sell it as a Whippet when there is nothing in the hat that says it is one. You could sell it as "Whippet-styled" or "Whippet-like" but without it actually saying Whippet somewhere in the hat, it would be unethical to sell it as a Whippet. That is why we keep saying it isn't a Whippet. It's called truth in advertising.

Still, like I said, if you have no interest in selling it, wear it in good health. Enjoy it.

I totally get what you're saying, and I wouldn't even try to misrepresent something i'm selling but when you come down to it, really is just a marketing gimmick. If the only thing that made it a whippet in the first place was printing it on the liner, then it really is just a name, and while it may make it more desirable to some consumer, it adds no actual value to the hat.

I'm VERY familiar with this phenomenon on ebay. In Vintage razors there is a late 50s/early sixties model of Gillette which has come to be known as the "Fat Boy" which has taken on a bit of a cult status. In spite of the fact that millions were made, and the supply is not especially constricted, they regularly bring very high prices. It's a good razor, but not better than any number of other razors which fetch much lower prices. I'm sure a big part of the appeal is the name, which is not even the real name. Gillette internally referred to it as the 195 when it was made, because it cost $1.95, but somewhere in recent history, people on internet message forums started calling it the "Fat Boy" and prices went through the roof. Now I like the Fat Boy. It's a nice razor, has good weight, and shaves really well, but I can never bring myself to keep one, because there's always someone eager to give me $65 bucks for any one I come across, and they just aren't that great in my book. I'm a relative newb to the hat collecting game, but I suspect that's what's also going on with the Whippet. If that's the case and I found one that looked just like my hat, I suspect I'd sell the one that said Whippet in the liner and keep wearing this one.

 

[HatsEnough]

I agree to a point. But you can't sell a Ford and call it a Cadillac and then say, "well, it's just a car!" And as far as "Whippet" goes, it is not a name collectors made up. It is a real hat model. It doesn't matter if it was the cheap hat or the most expensive hat. And so far I've not seen the fedora collector circle making up their own terms for fedoras much. We haven't had to. Most makers had their own terminology that we just repeat when talking of them.

In fact, a name designation really doesn't always sell quality necessarily. After all, we had a big discussion in the Stetson 100 thread on how a 100 from 1950 was a far, far better hat than a 100 from 1965 even though they both cost $100 and both were considered the top of the line hat.

We've seen the Stetson collecting craze on hats go from the Playboy to the Bantam to the Whippet to the Stratoliner (and to some extent the Open Road)... even though none of those named models were ever Stetson's most expensive hats they all command pretty good money. There really is no way to account for what suddenly becomes collectible sometimes. It just happens.

Anyway, you may be right that it was once a "real" Whippet and someone somewhere down the line replaced the liner with an average Stetson liner. But, since there is no way to prove that, it still cannot be legitimately called a Whippet.