Dating borsalino liner logos

[John in Covina]

I Wonder if it was counterfeit. Does anyone know if hats have ever been counterfeited?karol

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I believe that there was a time when some hats were being made under contract to Borslino and those were not quality specimens. in a way legal counterfeits.

 

[jamespowers]

So, what's the word on this dating system (numbers)? Does it appear reliable? It would appear to me that it is not, from what i've read here.

To throw a spanner in the works, i have a Borsalino 'San Remo' i picked up for a song. The numbers inside are: 3590 and 30264. With the numbering system this would place it at 1930 or 1935. Now ... this hat has a 2" brim and an almost 4.5" crown. (I know for a fact that Portis (or maybe Ferry) was producing a hat in 1932 with a 2" brim - called The Freshman.) It also has the liner that was earlier identified as 1970s. Original House stamped on the sweatband.

I am certain this is not a 30s hat.

What is the history of the San Remo style? When did production start? Anyone know?

bk

What you are describing sort of reminds me of this:

This ad is from 1963. Interesting that the last three numbers of the second label end in 64. Probably just an anomoly though. I have found the numbers to be useless and Borsalino won't help you a bit if you call them.

Regards,

J

 

[Baron Kurtz]

W
This ad is from 1963. Interesting that the last three numbers of the second label end in 64.

We have another Borsalino dating system!!!!!!!lol lol

It does look a bit like that hat ...

bk

 

[jamespowers]

We have another Borsalino dating system!!!!!!!lol lol

It does look a bit like that hat ...

bk

Hahahahahah! No, just a guess. I would have to see pictures, (hint, hint) to be sure of the age of the hat. Then again it is not an exact science. :fedora:

Regards,

J

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I have some pics of the hat somewhere ...

bk

 

[Justdog]

Help dating Borsalino

My family has been in the hat business since 1948 . I have dozens of old Borsalinos from the 1950's and up . Most have never been worn at all . I have the original lining die used for all of the Borsalino hats sold in the USA in my collection .
:cool2:

Was wondering if could help dating this?
Thanks

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/justdog/Hats/Borsalino3.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/justdog/Hats/Borsalino.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/justdog/Hats/Borsalino2.jpg

 

[jimmy the lid]

Here's another liner to add to the information on this thread:

The serial number on this lid is 45842. Using the system described at the beginning of this thread, this would date the hat to 1945. Pretty consistent with the info posted earlier regarding Brad Bowers' hat, which could date to 1948.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[jamespowers]

Here's another liner to add to the information on this thread:

The serial number on this lid is 45842. Using the system described at the beginning of this thread, this would date the hat to 1945. Pretty consistent with the info posted earlier regarding Brad Bowers' hat, which could date to 1948.

Cheers,
JtL

I am not sure if they were up and producing hats for public consumption so soon after the war. I would be skeptical of the number system as I have hats with original boxes dated 1957 with nearly the same logo in white. [huh]

 

[jimmy the lid]

I am not sure if they were up and producing hats for public consumption so soon after the war. I would be skeptical of the number system as I have hats with original boxes dated 1957 with nearly the same logo in white. [huh]

Interesting point, JP. The sketchy bits of historical info on the Borsalino website note that Borsalino's post-war recovery started in late 1945. Looks like the export market really started to take off again in 1947.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[jimmy the lid]

While I'm at it, I thought I may as well post another liner logo that hasn't been posted here yet. The serial number on this one is 28681. I don't think that the hat dates to 1928, so I'm having the same doubts that others have had previously on this thread regarding the accuracy of the serial number dating system. Is it possible that the serial number system works for the U.S. market, but not for the European? [huh] Ah, well...

In any event, I would think that the above liner dates to the forties...

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I am not sure if they were up and producing hats for public consumption so soon after the war. I would be skeptical of the number system as I have hats with original boxes dated 1957 with nearly the same logo in white. [huh]

The richly-photograph-illustrated Italian book about Borsalino hats lists quite a few production hats from the 1945-'46 era. Even one Homburg from 1942.

From this thread and the others, i'd say that using liners for dating hats seems the sketchiest of all methods. They seem to have had many many of the same liners in common use for many many years. I'm certainly not convinced about the dating system by numbers - for any Borsalinos of any era. From what I see, the number of hats that "fit" the system is at least counterbalanced by the number that seem not to "fit". I feel that it's natural for us to try to accept an early date - strokes our vanity, maybe - and so when one "fits" we accept it. Then the clearly 30s or 40s hat comes up that doesn't fit the numbering system. And we choose to reject it as an anomaly, but still live by the numbering system.

We have to accept the system for all hats for a certain market from a certain era, or we have to reject it. On the balance of evidence, i'll be a nay-sayer. I don't believe it.

bk

 

[jamespowers]

From this thread and the others, i'd say that using liners for dating hats seems the sketchiest of all methods. They seem to have had many many of the same liners in common use for many many years.
bk

I think that is the most important point. They probably did use the same liners for years if not a decade or so. Silk wasn't exactly cheap so throwing away the rest every year or so didn't make sense.
I am sure Stetson did the same thing back then. [huh]
Finding an actual 1945-46 era Borsalino would likely be very rare.

 

[jamespowers]

While I'm at it, I thought I may as well post another liner logo that hasn't been posted here yet. The serial number on this one is 28681. I don't think that the hat dates to 1928, so I'm having the same doubts that others have had previously on this thread regarding the accuracy of the serial number dating system. Is it possible that the serial number system works for the U.S. market, but not for the European? [huh] Ah, well...

In any event, I would think that the above liner dates to the forties...

Cheers,
JtL

I don't know. There is a paper size tag in there......

 

[carouselvic]

Dating Borsalinos

I own eight Borsalinos, seven of which were made for the American market. Six of these seven are of excellent quality, the other is a much later production called "RENNA". The Renna label is not readable, it has been funked up with hair oil and sweat. The eighth hat is LEO... ROMA. This hat was passed down in someone's family. It went to a son or son-in-law on Easter 4/7/85. If I were to believe the numbering system my hats would range from 1913 to 1983. I do not put any faith in the number system for dating "old" Borsalinos(pre 1975).

PS Before you ask I do not own a digital camera. ( I am hat poor)

 

[jimmy the lid]

I don't know. There is a paper size tag in there......

Besdor's info previously in this thread suggests that paper tags were found on the earlier hats. So, I think a paper tag may actually be consistent with a 40's lid. I also associate the "oilskin" treatment with the 40's.

Another interesting aspect of this hat is that, if you look carefully at where the sweat comes together in the back (where the small bow is located), the ends of the sweat are not stitched together. Instead, the two ends of the sweat appear to come together in a rather seamless fashion. I have seen this in only one other lid, my Amon Carter/Shady Oak OR. I have always wondered about this. Is such a treatment associated with a particular time period? Anyone have any thoughts on the explanation for this?

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Besdor's info previously in this thread suggests that paper tags were found on the earlier hats. So, I think a paper tag may actually be consistent with a 40's lid. I also associate the "oilskin" treatment with the 40's.

Another interesting aspect of this hat is that, if you look carefully at where the sweat comes together in the back (where the small bow is located), the ends of the sweat are not stitched together. Instead, the two ends of the sweat appear to come together in a rather seamless fashion. I have seen this in only one other lid, my Amon Carter/Shady Oak OR. I have always wondered about this. Is such a treatment associated with a particular time period? Anyone have any thoughts on the explanation for this?

Cheers,
JtL

The paper tags i have been viewing as a pre-war thing. In both US and European market hats from the postwar era, the blue and white fabric label is usually seen. Pre-war has the paper label. Of course i have no evidence for this; simply the apparent age of the hats.

Oilskin liner tops i have also always associated with pre-war Borsalinos.

On the back-of-the-sweatband thing. Check behind the "closure seam". My Borsas with this feature all have a piece of tape behind the seam to hold it shut.

bk

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I'm going to post at some point a Borsa which hasn't been seen here. I have apparently accurate (though second hand) details as regards the date of purchase, and it has all its features.

bk

 

[carouselvic]

Borsalino Paper tags

If you go back and read all Besdor's post in this thread he states paper hang tags were used on both old and newer Borsalinos. I agree with him on this. Four out of my eight Borsalinos have paper tags including the"RENNA" which I think is 1970's plus or minus one decade.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

are they the red and cream-type paper tags?

bk

 

[carouselvic]

Only one is the red and cream color, it is the Euro sized Leo...Roma. Two are small brown and cream colored,these are on thin ribbon, bound brim open road/stratoliner style hats. Both have a cream colored liner with black logo and writing. This liner type is not yet illistrated in this thread. The last is on the Renna and is only half there and it is so funky I can not tell its color. It's liner is of the #2 hat at the begining of the thread but with "The C. N. VICARY Co. CANTON, ohio logo and brown sweat band.