Dating a Suit?

[SteveN]

Gentlemen,

How do you folks go about dating a suit when viewing one on eBay? Are there guides for this? Is a peaked lapel a good indicator of the 'right' vintage (i.e. 30's & 40's)?

For example, what vintage do you think this is?

While it will be interesting to know the specific vintage of this suit, the question is more of a general suit or sportcoat dating query.

Cheers,
- SteveN

 

[reetpleat]

While there are many details that can be looked at, there is no substitute for the experienced eye that can, at a glance, identify something with accuracy, and it comes from, for me anyway, seeing many suits, not necesserily looking at details. I don't have time at the moment to discuss specific details and I hope other members can help or direct you to useful threads. But if you look at a lot of vintage suits in photos and in vintage shops and ebay, you may soon develop an eye that can tell pretty quickly, without having to actually know much about details.

one big give away is the weight of the fabric. hard to quantify, but I can tell by how a suit hangs and the texture of the fabric weather it is vintage or not.

 

[Dinerman]

That suit's fairly recent, probably '80s or so. Low and narrow button stance, is the biggest thing that makes me think that, but I could be wrong.

 

[resortes805]

While there are many details that can be looked at, there is no substitute for the experienced eye that can, at a glance, identify something with accuracy, and it comes from, for me anyway, seeing many suits, not necesserily looking at details.

Reetpleat is right. You just need to have the time and patience to look at and study alot of vintage suits from the decades that you like, be that on ebay, in person, or on the Fedora Lounge. There are tons of resources on the internet and here in the Fedora Lounge that will provide you with a "checklist" of details to identify a vintage suit, but nothing beats raw experience.

Remember, vintage is a competitive market, not everyone is going to be easily willing to spill the beans to accommodate a potential rival. But, if you take the time to develop a real passion for vintage, expect to embraced with open arms.

 

[SteveN]

Thanks Gentlemen,

I've certainly been reading up on everything I can here and at the LondonLounge, but there's a lot of material to search through. I've never seen any checklists, but will certainly start searching through the archives this evening!

I suppose I was hoping to start with some basics, like when zippers became common, belts vs. braces, etc. Just some simple, obvious things that can steer me to the obvious vintage items while my eye for detail gets trained.

It would be very frustrating (not to mention expensive) to buy a bunch of suits that are not of the vintage I'm looking for! One of the reasons why I don't agree with the 'no eBay auctions' policy!

Cheers,
- SteveN

 

[Baron Kurtz]

In my experience, there are no check lists. I would venture to say that are also no sure-fire definite indicators of vintage-ness.

I suppose I was hoping to start with some basics, like when zippers became common, belts vs. braces, etc. Just some simple, obvious things that can steer me to the obvious vintage items while my eye for detail gets trained.

All of these things are the source of much argument in the vintage community. Watch out for disinformation. Some of the eBay sellers are renowned for it ("no zippers before the end of WWII, no buttons after"-type insanity is rampant.).

I will also posit that online is only a start. To truly be able to know what to look for, you're going to have to get out and look "in person" at some (many) suits of the era(s) that interest(s) you.

bk

 

[benstephens]

I agree with Baron. You have to gain knowledge of actual garments and study the styles in Fashion magazines/catologues etc.

AS he says, check lists are not a very good thing, as not every vintage suit would have followed prevailing styles/trends at its time of manufacture.

When you have studied original suits etc, your eye will be accustmed to what is vintage or not, even if that vintage is cut completely differently to other contemporary items.

Ebay, for the unskilled must be a mine field. When I read what 90% of the sellers have placed in their descriptions it is just perpetuation of long held myths about mens clothing from the period they are describing.

If you want a suit to wear, you then have to decide what vintage style best suits you, rather than just buying a vintage suit from that era and wearing it. Some suits you will find, will have been very unfashinable, and some suits you may find made after the period of your interest are cut along the lines of a fashionable suit from a decade or before.

Study is the key to knowledge, and before long you will be in a good postion to go through vintage stores and go straight to the 'real vintage!

Kindest regards

Ben

 

[reetpleat]

Actually though, I would have to disagree a little. thee are some easy indicators of vintage. If i had you in front of me and a vintage and non vintage suit, i could easily show you many differences.

But on line it is harder, but here is a start.

Look inside the jacket for a tag. Look at Resortes' tag in his avatar. it is tan, and says a company name and often a location of the store or manufacturer. This is very distinct and only intentional retro clothes will imitate them. Also, look inside the breast pockets. There will often be a tag with a tailor or store name and if you are lucky, a date. There are also union tags, but I can't tell you what to look for. Other threads and individuals here can.

As far as the jacket goes, look at the lapels, single or double breasted, number of buttons that close, although even back in the day there were rare suits that resembled the six button two closure suits of the 80s. Fabric was thicker, usually wool. It hangs and drapes better, but again, that is more about your eye.

Inside lining of a jacket was a high quality material, often with no lining in the back. And the sleeves are white or a different lighter color than the rest. English tailoring often still does this I think.

Pants are easy to tell once you get to looking. bottoms were rarely tapered to more than 18 inches or so till the 60s, but not flared out. Except for rare suits from the 20s maybe, of which I have only seen 1, out of maybe 200 suits I have handled. Pants were pleated or not, but look to see that the knee is wider than the bottom of the legs. Easy way to weed out seventies suits. Also, most vintage up to the 60s were cuffed.

Forties and thirties and fifties favored grey, blue, brown, tan and occasionally black and were often striped in striped patterns, chalk (wider) stripes, cable stripes (the kind tht looks like two threads wrapped around each other like a cable), and pin stripes (thinner). fifties leaned more towards solids such as blue and brown, with black and other dark fabrics comprised of several colors mixed subtly. 60s suits tended towards black, some brown, gold and greens, and some blues. Fabrics were lighter weight and pants were trimmer with sharper tapers. The seventies saw a resurgence of vests, pseudo 30s cuts, and often nice vintage looking fabrics, but don't be fooled. Look at the pants. 70s will be lower waist, flat front, and wider in the bottom of leg than through the knee.
Lining in the pants is usually just the waist band and pockets, and is usually cotton, and very often white or off white.

Also, the arm holes are higher and the jackets fit snugger than modern suits.

That is what I can think of. It certainly is not enough to start buying from. if you have a chance, go into a vintage shop that sells men's stuff and they are knowledgeable, and ask them to show you some of the differences. If you trust the shop, you can buy from them knowing it is vintage of whatever you are looking for.

There are some ebay sellers that you can count on to be accurte in dating their stuff. Look for those who regularly sell vintage stuff and have high ratings.

 

[Tomasso]

It really helps to be able to handle the stuff in order to distinguish the nuances of both age and quality.

 

[SteveN]

Just putting down a summary for posterity. From reading a bunch of threads about this topic, it seems there are some details that can be used by newcomers that indicate possibly vintage jackets.

1. Union labels
2. Maker labels
3. Details: surgeon's cuffs, etc. indicate old jackets
4. Partial lining

Any other 'easy' things that can be spotted?

These clues are so obvious anyone can spot them, while a '3 roll 2 lapel' might take a while for someone to learn to spot.

Regards,
- SteveN

 

[Dinerman]

It's really something you have to develop an eye or a hand for- but take a look at these two jackets and look at the differences.

Some general things about double breasteds, but there are always exceptions

c.1940s

skeleton lined, buttonholes in both lapels, fairly wide, high sculpted lapels, high and wide button stance. 6 buttons, four to close (though like a single breasted, the bottom button should be left unbuttoned). The higher buttoning makes it much more comfortable when it's worn. Vintage jackets usually have higher, smaller armholes which gives you a greater range of motion, so that when you raise your arms when the jacket is buttoned, it doesn't pull. Many more people wore suits back in the '30s and '40s than they do today, so they were cut to be comfortable and utilitarian, as well as being classy.

c.1980s

Low button stance, narrower lapels, 1 buttonhole, fully lined, well, you can see the differences.

 

[Feraud]

There is no easy list...

Just putting down a summary for posterity. From reading a bunch of threads about this topic, it seems there are some details that can be used by newcomers that indicate possibly vintage jackets.

1. Union labels
2. Maker labels
3. Details: surgeon's cuffs, etc. indicate old jackets
4. Partial lining

Any other 'easy' things that can be spotted?

These clues are so obvious anyone can spot them, while a '3 roll 2 lapel' might take a while for someone to learn to spot.

Regards,
- SteveN

My issue with listing "easy" spots for vintage details are reflected in the 4 details you noted above. Three out of the four details can be found on modern jackets, and the fourth on jackets as recent as the 70s.

That is not to say we cannot identify garments (we do so here all the time)but making a quick and easy checklist is not advisable to a novice.

My overall advice regarding learning about vintage garments (this excludes buying on Ebay) is to handle as much vintage as possible and supplement that with the information available at the Lounge.

 

[SteveN]

You're right of course.

I wasn't trying to imply that the existence of these features indicates vintage, but that by reading the labels one might be able to determine this.

For example one reader dated my Harris Tweed by the style of the Dunn & Co. label, saying that this style of label was used in the 70's.

I'm hoping that by learning such details, for example the style of union labels (there's a thread about that somewhere on the forum) that I can more accurately date.

Agreed though, there is no substitute for experience and asking others.

Regards,
- SteveN

My issue with listing "easy" spots for vintage details are reflected in the 4 details you noted above. Three out of the four details can be found on modern jackets, and the fourth on jackets as recent as the 70s.

That is not to say we cannot identify garments (we do so here all the time)but making a quick and easy checklist is not advisable to a novice.

My overall advice regarding learning about vintage garments (this excludes buying on Ebay) is to handle as much vintage as possible and supplement that with the information available at the Lounge.

 

[frontmanvintage]

Union labels are one of the easiest things to find and date in a suit, whether they be UGWA, ACWA, or ACTWU and can usually get you within a decade or so. Makers labels can also be dated by their style and information and some menswear labels are even available at the Vintage Fashion Guide website with the decade of use.

Blatant plug: A good book for dating information is "A Dandy Guide to Dating Vintage Menswear" which is just out.

 

[Enigma1947]

Remember, vintage is a competitive market, not everyone is going to be easily willing to spill the beans to accommodate a potential rival. But, if you take the time to develop a real passion for vintage, expect to embraced with open arms.

I wish I had said this! Finding the passion within yourself is the most important thing in this lifestyle. I don't mean to sound philosophical but you must ask yourself, "what really brought me here?". For me, it's not just about vintage; it's about re-discovering an era and presenting it to a world that seems to have lost touch with it. Perhaps you feel the same?

 

[Two Types]

If you see something for sale on E-Bay (or other similar site) check if there is a photograph of the suit's label. If not, ask for the vendor to post a photo of the labels. You can tell a lot from a label.

This is a guide, rather than a rule, but if you are familiar with the fonts in vogue during a particular period then look at the font used on the label: what period does it suggest? (I know some companies have used the same logos for long periods, but others regularly changes their logos to appear 'up too date') It won't always work but sometimes it can be useful. For an example, if the label looks like its the logo for a 1970s disco there's not much chance that the suit is from the 1930s.

Also, labels often relate to a particular shop, sometimes with a particular address. An internet search will often find information about when a shop was at a particular location. I was able to date one suit by a tailor's telephone number. I knew when the area code had changed, thus I knew the suit was made after that date.

Making mistakes won't be fun - and can be costly - but you will make them. I know I have. I am sure even the 'experts' have been caught out from time to time (whether they would admit it or not). Just make sure you learn from your mistakes.

 

[Enigma1947]

Making mistakes won't be fun - and can be costly - but you will make them. I know I have. I am sure even the 'experts' have been caught out from time to time (whether they would admit it or not). Just make sure you learn from your mistakes.

When I first starting collecting about 14 years ago, I purchased a 1970's suit that I thought was from the 40's. Thinking back, for a 70's suit it did have some striking earlier details. Don't ask how much I paid. Let's just say... I was young and stupid!