Customer experiences with Bill Kelso

[Sloan1874]

Sounds like a terminal breakdown in communication to me.

 

[FAFOO68]

I think the FL is not the place for a "gunfight at the OK corral".
IMO, It is a place to inform people and share experiences (good (mostly) and bad).
Cheers,
Fafoo 68

 

[schitzo]

I recommend the Arsene Wenger approach

 

[andyfalzon]

Andy, a suggestion.
One thing that would go a long way to alleviating this kind of problem is to provide customers with more realistic delivery estimates.
If it is going to be 2 to 3 months, tell them that when they email you and ask how long till they receive the jacket.
If you hope it will be 2 to 3 weeks but have been having problems with suppliers and running into delays, stick to the 2 to 3 month estimate. You won't get any worried/pissed off customers if you deliver a jacket ahead of schedule, and doubt you will loose any customers with the longer estimate.
I suspect few of your customers read the "fine print" of the "terms of agreement" section of your web site...and if they do, what you tell them face to face (or email to email) I'm sure trumps in their minds what is written in the agreement.

The on line written terms may allow you to "win the battle", but in the long run you end up "loosing the war" of customer service.

Dear Jeff,
You are right but this place is meant for sharing information both ways. Both sides of the story should be heard. I hope you understand that neither we delay the deliveries on purpose nor we lie about delivery times. We always act on good faith. We sell jackets to all around the world and I can tell you that our happiest customers are from France. But Mr Fafoo ignored our assurances and he claimed against us although he had no right. We shipped the jacket late, but as promised on our last advice, and provided tracking number today. Despite that, he will not let go and he says he is waiting to receive the jacket to see that everything is in order before he releases the money. That is a behavior that we cannot afford to deal with.

You guys as customers, have every right to choose from which vendor you like to buy your jacket. Similarly, we have the right to sell to whoever we choose to. If you are a trouble maker, then sorry but we do not want your business. We 'd rather selll the jacket to someone who trusts us and values our business.

I have been a customer myself (still am) and there has to be a balance, mutual trust and respect. It's your hard earned money, and we respect that. It's our hard earned money too. These jackets are not easily made you know.

Customers have the forums to complain about Vendors' misconduct, but rest assured Vendors have their black listed customers circulated among them too.

You cannot defame a vendor like that and then brag about how you forced them to accelerate your order. This is not right.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Not cool for a jacket maker to reprimand a customer in public...and then set demands. Best left to behind the scene personal communication. Lack of professionalism no matter how you cut it. [huh] ..among other things that seem sketchy and misfiring to me.
HD

 

[andyfalzon]

Not cool for a jacket maker to reprimand a customer in public...and then set demands. Best left to behind the scene personal communication. Lack of professionalism no matter how you cut it. [huh] ..among other things that seem sketchy and misfiring to me.
HD

It's not lack of professionalism to defend yourself.
When someone is not fair and this damages our reputation, we have to let the truth be told.
You are entitled to your opinion, but you have to hear both sides first.

It is an implied rule that the customer and vendor have to resolve their problem in private. Only after they fail to resolve the problem, should make the case public. The customer did not respect that rule, let alone that he claimed although he was not entitled to, in breach of the agreed terms of sale. (I hate to repeat myself)

 

[Edward]

So if someone puts in a dispute notification with Paypal it freezes the money from going to the seller? Jinkies, I didn't know that. I have once or twice put in a complaint on ebay to protect myself (I've been ripped off there before), but only via eBay's dispute resolution procedure, which I didn't think went that far until you escalate it to eBay if the other party doesn't respond or no agreement can be reached? I never wanted to take my money back, just to protect myself, having a couple of times been strung along by sellers who seemed perfectly legit about delays until just at the point where I went past the limit for lodging a dispute.

 

[xOUTLAWx]

I think the FL is not the place for a "gunfight at the OK corral".
IMO, It is a place to inform people and share experiences (good (mostly) and bad).
Cheers,
Fafoo 68

It is what's happening... (maybe you didn't expected retaliation?) I don't see the your point with the ''gunfight at the OK corral''

 

[HoosierDaddy]

It's not lack of professionalism to defend yourself.
When someone is not fair and this damages our reputation, we have to let the truth be told.
You are entitled to your opinion, but you have to hear both sides first.

It is an implied rule that the customer and vendor have to resolve their problem in private. Only after they fail to resolve the problem, should make the case public. The customer did not respect that rule, let alone that he claimed although he was not entitled to, in breach of the agreed terms of sale. (I hate to repeat myself)

That's fine if you want to argue about it on a forum thread..I suppose...and even have a 'take it or leave it' attitude concerning your products/timelines/shortages. Many jacket companies have been criticized on this and other forums..and sometimes even unfairly..but it's kind of a rarity to see company management/reps step in to enhance the argument. However..I just noticed you are a vendor here..so perhaps that makes a difference. It just seems to me that most suggestions from potential customers joining the forum fray are ignored or dismissed with suggesting that they can shop elsewhere. Kinda unusual to say the least...but carry on..this is just one man's opinion.
HD

 

[andyfalzon]

potential customers joining the forum fray are ignored or dismissed with suggesting that they can shop elsewhere

This never happened.
I said if one is a trouble maker, we prefer not to deal with him. Nobody does you know.

 

[ButteMT61]

This never happened. I said if one is a trouble maker, we prefer not to deal with him. Nobody does you know.

Nowhere is that point clearer than in this thread. I don't believe youv'e done yourself any favors here, but it also doesn't appear you care much. It's too bad really, when the new BK line was announced over on VLJ, I was excited to order. I've since grown quite skeptical, and after this (and other) thread, I'd have to say I'd shop elsewhere. I wish you better luck in the future...

 

[fukigen]

I sense much anger, the dark side is surrouding this thread...
fair for both parties to give their point of view it is, and one respect other's point of view has to...

I ordered the RW27752 from BK end of last spring, so I could be sure that I would have it for this autumn.
The communication with Andy was great, he was very patient and replying really quickly to all my questions.
I was not expecting to get the jacket within 2 weeks, but more like a month or two.
If I remember well, it took about a month and half... and when it arrives, I was on summer vacation plus it was catch by the customs to add the VAT... (and they almost sent the jacket back because I didn't answer their letter asking for the jacket value, I was on vacation!!)
Overall, I am extremely satisfied with the service provided by BK and will order from them again (m-422... indy...).

On the other hand, I perfectly understand that when you send the paypal payment, and ask for an update, and get no answer, it could be worrying... and this has to be understood as well.


I would say
patience young padawan, you need to learn patience...

BK is running their business and not replying to mail or not doing the jacket properly would ruin all their efforts.
If no answer is provided, for sure there is a good reason for that (I got all the answer same or next day). and actual situation in Greece (with strikes) surely do not help.

It seems that some miscommunication led to this issue, it is unfortunate.
Let's keep this between gentlemen, please

(any similarity to fictional green character's way of talking, coincidental, it is not )

 

[andyfalzon]

Nowhere is that point clearer than in this thread. I don't believe youv'e done yourself any favors here, but it also doesn't appear you care much. It's too bad really, when the new BK line was announced over on VLJ, I was excited to order. I've since grown quite skeptical, and after this (and other) thread, I'd have to say I'd shop elsewhere. I wish you better luck in the future...

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion and as I said the customer is always right but I am surprised that you find it OK if the customer abuses the vendor. Our flag is Fairplay and Our Word Is Our Bond and we always treat everybody the same with the utmost respect. 99.99% of our customers are very satisfied. Yet, it takes only one, who by the way is NOT justified to claim, to make you make up your mind against us. Would you feel more comfortable if we took the bashing and said "thank you" instead of standing up for ourselves?
He is illegally holding our money while the package is on the way. We offered the man his money back, what else do you need to be happy? There is a contract of sale and we honored every bit of it and we are proud of having done so but as someone said "you can't please everybody, no matter how hard you try".

 

[ButteMT61]

I'm not simply taking the word of one customer Andy. I'm taking into consideration the numerous threads on VLJ, your replies, and the reasons why jackets are often delayed.
You also can't discount Aero USA in this. People are rightly skittish over delays. People know how long an order takes from GW and Aero. No problems because it's what's expected. With BK, they've had numerous stumbles with the new lines. I've told you that I think you tried to do too many things, too quickly, rather than focusing on a few things and getting them in the hands of buyers. You've disagreed with me, which is your prerogative. I'm never saying anything with the intent to hurt you - quite the contrary. But you don't like hearing what others have to say, and I think that's to your detriment. Only one man's 2¢. But as long as there's a forum, I'm going to participate as I see fit. I (and others) were called out as shills for Mark Moye and some insinuated we got favors for favorable reviews here. Never again.
My remarks here and elsewhere will simply reflect what I "see". If I'm wrong, it will be pointed out, and I will happily suck it up.

 

[andyfalzon]

I respect your opinion. The mistakes we made in the past paved the way of correcting them today and tomorrow. I do not claim we are perfect but you will appreciate that we honestly try to deliver the best possible deal to our customers. Criticism is welcome as are comments and suggestions for improving ourselves. Unfounded slander is not. (generally speaking, this is not meant for you)

 

[ButteMT61]

I respect your opinion. The mistakes we made in the past paved the way of correcting them today and tomorrow. I do not claim we are perfect but you will appreciate that we honestly try to deliver the best possible deal to our customers. Criticism is welcome as are comments and suggestions for improving ourselves. Unfounded slander is not. (generally speaking, this is not meant for you)

For the sake of one sale with issues (in this thread) I think you let your emotions get the better of you. You have been a regular presence on all the forums. Only a couple vendors do that, and while some don't think it's a good idea, I think it can be beneficial. I don't think this issue played out well here. BK has 100% feedback on Ebay. That's tough to maintain as a seller. People that have received their jackets have been happy on VLJ. Don't get upset over posts. People may have had to save for a very long time to order just one jacket. That kind of thing can bring out raw nerves when one fears they might lose that money. Don't take it personally. The boards are here to communicate, and you can do that without turning potential customers off. I'd wager that your troubles are mere stumbling blocks in the road to success. I truly hope so.

 

[mattp]

I'll quite happily buy another Bill Kelso jacket. In support for Andy, I subscribe to the notion of working out problems via personal communications, and think public naming and shaming should be kept for when this has categorically failed. I've had issues with a seller on another forum who took ages to get back to me regarding a defective product and subsequent refund, but all worked out in the end and I didn't have to smear him on a public forum to get the result I was after.
I don't want to 'take sides', but I just thought that I'd throw in an opinion from a happy Bill Kelso customer. The workmanship on my BK A-2 is equal to, or better than, any of my other jackets, including an Aero.
I hope this ends amicably for all involved.

 

[andyfalzon]

I apologize if I have been abrupt. My words do not necessarily represent the company's views. I may have took it personally, but I can't stand injustice, especially as we endeavor to be fair to everybody.

 

[andyfalzon]

I'll quite happily buy another Bill Kelso jacket. In support for Andy, I subscribe to the notion of working out problems via personal communications, and think public naming and shaming should be kept for when this has categorically failed. I've had issues with a seller on another forum who took ages to get back to me regarding a defective product and subsequent refund, but all worked out in the end and I didn't have to smear him on a public forum to get the result I was after.
I don't want to 'take sides', but I just thought that I'd throw in an opinion from a happy Bill Kelso customer. The workmanship on my BK A-2 is equal to, or better than, any of my other jackets, including an Aero.
I hope this ends amicably for all involved.

Well said
Let's all embrace now. :eusa_clap

 

[Sloan1874]

I was going to suggest 'hugging it out', but thought I'd get pelters for saying that...