Crown height ?

[belfastboy]

Thank you BB. I appreciate that. Converting a Western would definitely work to get the proportions Deeeluxe D is looking for, if he doesn't mind the stiffness. But it would definitely work. On the other hand, if he's wanting something a little more similar to a vintage feel a custom build might be his best option. So maybe you and he can get together on a build?

Here's a Resistol Stagecoach that I converted some time back...

Before:

After: tall straight crown:

On the head: in b&w

I also agree with J Lee about crown height and crown shape to a person's body proportions and head shape. As a general rule I think 5 3/4 is plenty tall for a fedora. On the other hand, someone with DH's physical proportions and head shape can easily pull off a 6 inch open crown height with a wider brim. CVW posted a hat he made with those proportions that would've worked out perfect for DH.

Again, maybe you and Deeeluxe can get together on a build.

I have not worked on many western refurbs ....more on older fedoras. I have found that after the naptha bath and or an Orvis paste washing the felts loosen up some. In some cases of vintage fedoras I have had to put shellac back in to he felt to stiffen it up a touch. Have you found any lessening/loosening of the felt stiffness in the westerns after you have worked them? I have this thought to play around with some old/beater western, naptha, washing, hot water immersion just to see if I can loosen them up. Thoughts?

 

[T Jones]

If the crease in the photo is what you are after then you want thin very malleable felt. You can’t duplicate that with most current dress weight hats and certainly not with western weight felt. I love my VS hats from Art, but I think Gannon would be my first choice for this as his crowns are the thinnest and densest of any of my custom hats (VS remains, but Art is no longer making hats). It seems as if you want incompatible qualities: think felt and a tight deep crease.

Not meaning to come across as sounding contradictory but achieving tight deep creases in heavyweight Westerns can be done easily enough. I've worked at converting stiff heavyweight Westerns for a number of years. When it comes to getting tight deep creases out of heavy felted Westerns, for my part, I've had good success at it...

Resistol Stagecoach conversion in Chestnut:

Another example of a tight crease in heavy Western felt:
Resistol 4X

Knox Stagecoach:

 

[T Jones]

I have not worked on many western refurbs ....more on older fedoras. I have found that after the naptha bath and or an Orvis paste washing the felts loosen up some. In some cases of vintage fedoras I have had to put shellac back in to he felt to stiffen it up a touch. Have you found any lessening/loosening of the felt stiffness in the westerns after you have worked them? I have this thought to play around with some old/beater western, naptha, washing, hot water immersion just to see if I can loosen them up. Thoughts?

To be honest, BB, I haven't. I've found that applying heat to those stiff Westerns only activates the stiffener even more, (through ironing, that is). I do, however, spray those Westerns down with a spritzing of water, but not soaking, from a spray bottle to make them maliable for creasing. I never really tried to do anything to loosen the felt up on those stiff Westerns, it might make for some interesting experimentation, though.

 

[belfastboy]

Not meaning to come across as sounding contradictory but achieving tight deep creases in heavyweight Westerns can be done easily enough. I've worked at converting stiff heavyweight Westerns for a number of years. When it comes to getting tight deep creases out of heavy felted Westerns, for my part, I've had good success at it...

Resistol Stagecoach conversion in Chestnut:

Another example of a tight crease in heavy Western felt:
Resistol 4X

Knox Stagecoach:

What an amazingly deep bash on this....you could collect rain water in that hollow!

 

[belfastboy]

To be honest, BB, I haven't. I've found that applying heat to those stiff Westerns only activates the stiffener even more, through ironing, that is. I do, however, spray those Westerns down with a spritzing of water, but not soaking, from a spray bottle to make them maliable for creasing. I never really tried to do anything to loosen the felt up on those stiff Westerns, it might make for some interesting experimentation, though.

When I have some time this winter I am going to play around with some 'sacrificial felts' just to see what happens. Will post results....good or bad!

 

[T Jones]

What an amazingly deep bash on this....you could collect rain water in that hollow!

Ha ha! I guess I could at that!

 

[T Jones]

When I have some time this winter I am going to play around with some 'sacrificial felts' just to see what happens. Will post results....good or bad!

Should be interesting. Can't wait to see what you come up with.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Not meaning to come across as sounding contradictory but achieving tight deep creases in heavyweight Westerns can be done easily enough. I've worked at converting stiff heavyweight Westerns for a number of years. When it comes to getting tight deep creases out of heavy felted Westerns, for my part, I've had good success at it...

Resistol Stagecoach conversion in Chestnut:

Another example of a tight crease in heavy Western felt:
Resistol 4X

Knox Stagecoach:

Your creases look great, Terry, but they don’t look at all like the photo of provided by the gentleman looking to add crown height. Your felt looks thick and does not have the tightness of the crease that is only possible with thinner and malleable felt. You can crease any felt to any depth, but thick western felt will never look like the thin dress felt in the photo.

I too like western felt conversions to fedoras, but the felt is always western no matter how it’s shaped. You just can’t, for example, put a 40Cal diamond crease into a 1970s 3X western. You can put in a diamond, but you can’t get the razor sharp crease 40Cal used with western weight felt. I certainly wasn’t meaning to impugn you or your ability to deeply and beautifully crease western felt into a fedora shape.

 

[T Jones]

Your creases look great, Terry, but they don’t look at all like the photo of provided by the gentleman looking to add crown height. Your felt looks thick and does not have the tightness of the crease that is only possible with thinner and malleable felt. You can crease any felt to any depth, but thick western felt will never look like the thin dress felt in the photo.

I too like western felt conversions to fedoras, but the felt is always western no matter how it’s shaped. You just can’t, for example, put a 40Cal diamond crease into a 1970s 3X western. You can put in a diamond, but you can’t get the razor sharp crease 40Cal used with western weight felt. I certainly wasn’t meaning to impugn you or your ability to deeply and beautifully crease western felt into a fedora shape.

View attachment 368465

View attachment 368466

Thank you buddy, and no offense taken at all....and again, and not meaning to come across as sounding contradictory, thick or thin felted I can get the same tight creases and the more crisp and symmetrical creases, as with this vintage Dobbs Fifth Avenue, (and this Dobbs is thin felted). I love the felt on this. One thing I'll definitely agree with you on is that vintage felt and dye quality is far superior to what's made today...

Before refurb @ size 7:

After refurb @ new size, 7 1/4: (I went for a clean and symmetrical crease, as I prefer with all my creases)...

On the head:

EDIT TO ADD: okay. I see what you're saying. No. I'm not going to get a 40 Cal crease out of thick felted Westerns. What I was addressing is that I can get tight, deep and symmetrical creases from Western weight felt. I can do that very same thing with vintage felt too. Then again, I never tried going for the '40 Cal' look.

 

[Rmccamey]

Creases! Don't need no damned creases!

 

[Deeeluxe Definitely]

@T Jones - I'm glad to see you in the (now merged) thread. I looked up your work beforehand in the Conversion Corral, at the suggestion of @belfastboy. It is truly fantastic, as seen above. Those creases are impressive! Seems like they may really suffice, for my needs.

How stiff of felt are we talking, after the conversion?

Interesting naphtha suggestion by belfast (I'm not avoiding the notion of getting a custom from you, FWIW, only first fully exploring the option of giving an old hat new life - for obnoxious personal ethics and cos a lot of my style already is second hand articles that I purchased frugally but look rather expensive). I'm curious how much they could be softened.

@deadlyhandsome - I was linking the Bogart hat to illustrate the depth of the crease in relation to the starting height, but I should have clarified that while I enjoy the rumpled look of the old hats, I would like something smoother. Still, as you say, that look might not be achievable in a western conversion. I haven't seen the effect of trying a really deep bash on a really tall crown of a converted western; if that's somewhere to see on here, I would love to get pointed that way.

As to knowing the beaver content, I was just saying that a lot of vintage(ish?) westerns give some indication (at least in relation to each other) of the amount, but as for vintage fedoras, or exact percentages, I haven't a clue.

Thanks again for the helpful and (mostly) polite responses. I'm just trying to envision possibilities of things I've never seen in person or in photos, and coming to people who have more experience and knowledge to help me. I'm not meaning to miss details or be oblivious. As I say, I've learned a lot but am still learning.

 

[T Jones]

@T Jones - I'm glad to see you in the (now merged) thread. I looked up your work beforehand in the Conversion Corral, at the suggestion of @belfastboy. It is truly fantastic, as seen above. Those creases are impressive! Seems like they may really suffice, for my needs.

How stiff of felt are we talking, after the conversion?

Interesting naphtha suggestion by belfast (I'm not avoiding the notion of getting a custom from you, FWIW, only first fully exploring the option of giving an old hat new life - for obnoxious personal ethics and cos a lot of my style already is second hand articles that I purchased frugally but look rather expensive). I'm curious how much they could be softened.

...while I enjoy the rumpled look of the old hats, I would like something smoother.

Thank you, Deeeluxe! Much appreciated. I watch a lot of film noir movies from the 1940s and early '50s, so most of what I do are "Noir" inspired, (which also include the thin ribbons, my personal favorites). But yeah, the more "recent vintage" Westerns I work with are going to be stiff and thick felted, although I do sand the brims down on those to make them thinner. I've also reworked the finish on some to give them more of a brushed look with a softer feel, to good results.
I mostly come up with tall straight crowns that have that deep dished out crease in the crown, and, whether vintage or the more recent thick felted Western, I always make my creases and side dents smooth and symmetrical. When you mentioned in your OP that you were wanting something "noirish" I pretty much knew the style you were going after. I think a custom build would be your best option since you can have one built to your personal specs. Maybe you can get with belfastboy and you two can come up with a nice custom build. Although I keep telling myself, I will, I still haven't made that leap from being a long time hobbyist to doing custom builds. But someday, I will!

Just to add: I think the one conversion I did that had the biggest transformation was this moth eaten and neglected 6 7/8 Resistol Stagecoach that a fellow Lounger rescued from a yard sale and gave to me...

Side by side before and after. The crown is tall and straight with a deep teardrop crease. I bound the brim and salvaged the ribbon and bow work from a donor hat...

 

[Deeeluxe Definitely]

@T Jones - Haha, I'm one step ahead there! I saw and admired this when browsing the conversion thread! What an astonishing transformation. You'd be doing the hat community an enormous service by moving past hobbyist, due to your skill, but also because the fedora is a superior hat to the western (cattlemen crease, upturned side brim), just in my opinion. 19th Century Arizona cowboys are the ones I appreciate, and their hats were not the first thing the average person would envision when thinking about western hat profiles. (I'm also a huge fan of the teardrop; I've been wearing that crease only for the duration of my hat days.)

I've got a '50s Stetson that I found in a prop box in a theater and swapped it with a modern wool felt I had lying around (it deserves its dignity, being historic) with all the wrong specs for me that features the Royal Deluxe felt, and it doesn't seem right to me. I like the thicker felt of my heavily converted nineties Bailey (it may have started as some weird fedora-western hybrid- teardrop top and snap brim, but wide brimmed and with a braided leather band).

I might look out for an old Stetson Beaver 3X felt - seems like it might be what I'm looking for. Whether I can find a very high crown version with substantial brim in fedora form remains to be seen. If not, maybe I can find a western in 3X Beaver and get it converted.

Or maybe I'll just have to sacrifice feel (read: accept stiffness). I don't like to get skin oils on my felt as is, so I touch them as little as possible anyway.

I wonder what combination of felt thickness and stiffness/lack thereof determines how tight of pinches a felt can keep locked in.

I look forward to future projects and experiments by both you and @belfastboy.

 

[T Jones]

@T Jones - Haha, I'm one step ahead there! I saw and admired this when browsing the conversion thread! What an astonishing transformation. You'd be doing the hat community an enormous service by moving past hobbyist, due to your skill, but also because the fedora is a superior hat to the western (cattlemen crease, upturned side brim), just in my opinion. 19th Century Arizona cowboys are the ones I appreciate, and their hats were not the first thing the average person would envision when thinking about western hat profiles. (I'm also a huge fan of the teardrop; I've been wearing that crease only for the duration of my hat days.)

I've got a '50s Stetson that I found in a prop box in a theater and swapped it with a modern wool felt I had lying around (it deserves its dignity, being historic) with all the wrong specs for me that features the Royal Deluxe felt, and it doesn't seem right to me. I like the thicker felt of my heavily converted nineties Bailey (it may have started as some weird fedora-western hybrid- teardrop top and snap brim, but wide brimmed and with a braided leather band).

I might look out for an old Stetson Beaver 3X felt - seems like it might be what I'm looking for. Whether I can find a very high crown version with substantial brim in fedora form remains to be seen. If not, maybe I can find a western in 3X Beaver and get it converted.

Or maybe I'll just have to sacrifice feel (read: accept stiffness). I don't like to get skin oils on my felt as is, so I touch them as little as possible anyway.

I wonder what combination of felt thickness and stiffness/lack thereof determines how tight of pinches a felt can keep locked in.

I look forward to future projects and experiments by both you and @belfastboy.

Thank you Deeeluxe! I appreciate all of that.
As far as vintage Stetson felt I have to say that the Royal Stetson is a personal favorite. I have a Royal Stetson and a couple of 3X Stetsons, all nice felts, but I really like the Royal Stetson. It's thinner felt but no less the quality of the others, and it takes a crease really well.

As far as thick felted Westerns I can work them to where they react similar to vintage felts when it comes to making them maliable and easy to take a dry crease. Being modern felt, though, it's still not going to have that vintage feel.

Here's a thick felted modern Biltmore Western that I'm converting. It felt like a thick blanket and wouldn't hold a dry crease at all. It was tough felt and hard to manipulate. After a little work I was able to make it pliable to where I can easily crease it with one hand, and not mar the finish. I'll have more on this one when it's completed...

 

[Deeeluxe Definitely]

Thank you Deeeluxe! I appreciate all of that.
As far as vintage Stetson felt I have to say that the Royal Stetson is a personal favorite. I have a Royal Stetson and a couple of 3X Stetsons, all nice felts, but I really like the Royal Stetson. It's thinner felt but no less the quality of the others, and it takes a crease really well.

As far as thick felted Westerns I can work them to where they react similar to vintage felts when it comes to making them maliable and easy to take a dry crease. Being modern felt, though, it's still not going to have that vintage feel.

Here's a thick felted modern Biltmore Western that I'm converting. It felt like a thick blanket and wouldn't hold a dry crease at all. It was tough felt and hard to manipulate. After a little work I was able to make it pliable to where I can easily crease it with one hand, and not mar the finish. I'll have more on this one when it's completed...

Wow! That was a western?! That seems to be incredibly malleable in that case.

Before seeing this, I was going to double post and ask about the vintage Borsalino you converted. I was thinking, they come with tall crowns and occasionally pretty reasonable prices.

But after seeing this, I feel more and more that a converted thick beaver western could be the way to go. I don't really want the rumpled look, and if I can get some pliability and sharp creases, I should be fine.

I love the super straight sided, taper-free look you achieve. They're probably extremely durable too.

Would it take to a nice deep scoop flange?

I'm just a big fan of your work and will use it to guide what I request out of a hatter; I'm not trying to persuade you to do a commission. (But, I mean, if you ever get tired of one of the ones you've made, I'm just throwing it out there that I'm also a 7 1/4. (; I kid, I kid.)

 

[T Jones]

Wow! That was a western?! That seems to be incredibly malleable in that case.

Before seeing this, I was going to double post and ask about the vintage Borsalino you converted. I was thinking, they come with tall crowns and occasionally pretty reasonable prices.

But after seeing this, I feel more and more that a converted thick beaver western could be the way to go. I don't really want the rumpled look, and if I can get some pliability and sharp creases, I should be fine.

I love the super straight sided, taper-free look you achieve. They're probably extremely durable too.

Would it take to a nice deep scoop flange?

I'm just a big fan of your work and will use it to guide what I request out of a hatter; I'm not trying to persuade you to do a commission. (But, I mean, if you ever get tired of one of the ones you've made, I'm just throwing it out there that I'm also a 7 1/4. (; I kid, I kid.)

Thanks again, Deeeluxe! This Biltmore felt like a stiff heavy blanket when I first started. It wouldn't take or hold a dry crease at all. After some work I got it to where it's much more malleable and will easily take a dry crease. But yes, the sides are vertical with no taper at all. The open crown on this one is 6 inches so if I decide to do a teardrop it will be deep. I'll probably be using a #810 flange on the brim so it'll have a good "scoop" to the brim. That video was just to show how malleable and how easily it took to dry creasing. When I'm finished the crease will be smooth and not rumpled looking.

7 1/4. You're the same size I am! Got you noted!

 

[Deeeluxe Definitely]

Thanks again, Deeeluxe! This Biltmore felt like a stiff heavy blanket when I first started. It wouldn't take or hold a dry crease at all. After some work I got it to where it's much more malleable and will easily take a dry crease. But yes, the sides are vertical with no taper at all. The open crown on this one is 6 inches so if I decide to do a teardrop it will be deep. I'll probably be using a #810 flange on the brim so it'll have a good "scoop" to the brim. That video was just to show how malleable and how easily it took to dry creasing. When I'm finished the crease will be smooth and not rumpled looking.

7 1/4. You're just the size I am! Got you noted!

Oh no, I meant those old hand-creased, "lived-in" black and white movie fedoras often have a rumpled quality that I love but prefer to do without, myself. Not yours! Looking at all your other work, it's obvious to me that anything resembling rumpled is temporary and that it'll be very smooth.

If it weren't for me knowing that you'll keep the brim wide-ish and the ribbon narrow-ish, I would be preparing to beg to buy it off you! We definitely have similar sensibilities for the most part, but I'm a 2¼"-2⅜" brim, 1⅞"-2" ribbon kind of guy. Y'know, just throwing that out there. (Just joking; I have no expectations!)

Totally keeping an eye on this project!

(I actually did a fair amount of DIY myself - which required learning to hand sew - on a wool fedora. Just as I got it looking nice, it shrank to about 70% its original size. Hah, live and learn. And onwards and upwards!)

 

[T Jones]

Oh no, I meant those old hand-creased, "lived-in" black and white movie fedoras often have a rumpled quality that I love but prefer to do without, myself. Not yours! Looking at all your other work, it's obvious to me that anything resembling rumpled is temporary and that it'll be very smooth.

If it weren't for me knowing that you'll keep the brim wide-ish and the ribbon narrow-ish, I would be preparing to beg to buy it off you! We definitely have similar sensibilities for the most part, but I'm a 2¼"-2⅜" brim, 1⅞"-2" ribbon kind of guy. Y'know, just throwing that out there. (Just joking; I have no expectations!)

Totally keeping an eye on this project!

(I actually did a fair amount of DIY myself - which required learning to hand sew - on a wool fedora. Just as I got it looking nice, it shrank to about 70% its original size. Hah, live and learn. And onwards and upwards!)

Lol. I knew what you meant. No offense taken at all. Like you, I like those old hand creased lived in looks too, but I think prefer the smooth and symmetric look, myself.

This one has a 6 inch and vertical sided open crown with a 2 5/8 brim. It'll have a black 1 5/8 ribbon and bow that I scavenged off a vintage donor hat. It'll have norish look when I'm finished. Should have it done by the end of the week so I'll post some pics.

 

[belfastboy]

T

Oh no, I meant those old hand-creased, "lived-in" black and white movie fedoras often have a rumpled quality that I love but prefer to do without, myself. Not yours! Looking at all your other work, it's obvious to me that anything resembling rumpled is temporary and that it'll be very smooth.

If it weren't for me knowing that you'll keep the brim wide-ish and the ribbon narrow-ish, I would be preparing to beg to buy it off you! We definitely have similar sensibilities for the most part, but I'm a 2¼"-2⅜" brim, 1⅞"-2" ribbon kind of guy. Y'know, just throwing that out there. (Just joking; I have no expectations!)

Totally keeping an eye on this project!

(I actually did a fair amount of DIY myself - which required learning to hand sew - on a wool fedora. Just as I got it looking nice, it shrank to about 70% its original size. Hah, live and learn. And onwards and upwards!)

Learning by trial and error for me is the best method. I purchased beater westerns and inexpensive fur felt seconds to practice on in my early days. I have a pile of discarded felts in a box in the corner of my shop.....reminders of how far I have come and a reminder to not make those same mistakes again!

 

[Deeeluxe Definitely]

Lol. I knew what you meant. No offense taken at all. Like you, I like those old hand creased lived in looks too, but I think prefer the smooth and symmetric look, myself.

This one has a 6 inch and vertical sided open crown with a 2 5/8 brim. It'll have a black 1 5/8 ribbon and bow that I scavenged off a vintage donor hat. It'll have norish look when I'm finished. Should have it done by the end of the week so I'll post some pics.

Agreed 100%. It feels like a nice middle ground. I'm fond of the deep creases but need a bit more cleanness/symmetry than the handmade look. On the other side of the spectrum are the perfect factory pressed hats, but they can feel a tad impersonal and samey (just in my personal view - there are loads of hats that are exceptions to these rules and look great).

That plan sounds lovely. Can't wait to see the finished product, or better yet the work in progress!

The hatter who's sprucing up my current hat said that reblocking it so that it has no taper would further reduce the crown height. This steers me further from wanting to find an old Borsalino- even if the starting OC height was tall, it would get reduced when blocking it to taper-free sides. Whereas I feel like this would be less the case with an converted western. Maybe I'm wrong, or it's wishful thinking (I kind of like the idea of thick felt, really.)

T

Learning by trial and error for me is the best method. I purchased beater westerns and inexpensive fur felt seconds to practice on in my early days. I have a pile of discarded felts in a box in the corner of my shop.....reminders of how far I have come and a reminder to not make those same mistakes again!

That is wise to keep those around! I have a great deal of admiration for such craftsmanship. This inspires me to want to keep trying (hats are just part of it; I want to get skilled in tailoring) - but ultimately I get overwhelmed and decide, at this stage, I'd be best off just making money at things I already know how to do and pay someone for the tailoring services. Who knows; like you say the winter months are approaching, and that's when our type gets bored and decide to get creative and experimental. Haha

A sincere thanks to -everyone- who was taken the time to reply. You're helping me slowly but surely zero in on exactly what I want.

For some of us, it is purchasing many hats and picking a favorite. For me, it's modifying a hat or two, getting ever closer to the ideal specs. Either way, it takes some time and expenses.