Colorizing Old Movies

[sixties.nut]

To Colorize or Not to Colorize - That is the 64K question

I'm not so sure I would side with the nay say'ers. Some of the better more recent films using a composite of color And black and white were in my opinion better visuals. The little girl in Schindler's List, also were Bond earned his double O status in Casino Royale only served to enhance the films.

Granted these are examples of where it was the directors choice to utilize those effects. Then again perhaps the subject matter of either of those examples in itself weighted more dramatic effect than the medium used to express it.

I would also tend to believe that using this type of effect would only enhance older horror films like the first dracula movie, say if the first glimpse of Count Orlok had shown him in color briefly then revert back to black and white. The same can be said for either the original Frankenstein or the original Mummy. Of films like these we'll never know what the directors opinion would be. But then again they never had the opportunity to work in color medium either.

To colorize the entire film as in the case of The Wizard of Oz, where both mediums in excellent condition exists, it's a matter of choice to the viewer. In no case whatsoever should studios even consider Film Noir genre for colorization. A total waste of effort for the collector and buyers of vintage film. I am more concerned about media laying about in vaults further deteriorating with little interest in producing in DVD format because of lack of purchasing interest as in the case of the Pete Smith Specialties. Agreed these are dated voice over comedies but no less deserving than that of the fifth season of Wild Wild West, Gunsmoke etc.

Unfortunately for some of us and for historical purposes so much footage will never see the light of day again. It seems Hollywood is more interested in taking films that were already in good preservation formats and enhancing it to HiDef which what they really should say is that they are only converting SD to HD. Big Deal!

I am sure many folks are aware that 20th Century did do some restoration work on a series of notable films in their library and it was admirable for them to do so even if the works were in decent enough shape it gave them the chance to release them in a current format for us to enjoy. Unfortunately for us that TCM is of the mindset of Disney in regards to we'll release what we want, when we want!

To add to our chagrin both of those studios are (it seems) run by administrators who obviously don't know what their doing much less what the organization is doing. Don't believe me, take a look at their website(s) or send them an email. nuf said!

 

[Forgotten Man]

I've grown to love black and white. I also love original Technicolor pictures from the mid 30s to the 40s. Two strip is fun to see when it comes up for air. I am a die hard purest as many of you know, and I find that people who want to colorize a black and white film really don't appreciate the era it was made and are just too modern minded to step back and let their eyes adjust to watching a movie that was filmed in an era that used more shadows and more drama to enhance the picture due to the contrast black and white offers. I mean, color in the 30s was very expensive and that's why in '39 "The Women" was only filmed in black and white except for the fashion show... M~G~M spent a lot of money on "Gone With The Wind" that year so, they would have gone over budget to make "The Women" full length color.

I often times wonder what colors things were in these films... but, no matter who may colorize them, they'll never get the colors right unless they have the original costumes in hand and or a list with the colors listed... even then is tough because it would be up to that person's personal interpretation as to what the colors would look.

If black and white really bothers some, just don't watch old movies... just that simple. Lave it for those who embrace film in the art that it is and that offers color or "gray".

 

[HosManHatter]

I am against colorizing the classic films!

That said...if it helps to get more people to actually watch the Classics and if a great film`s being colorized causes more people to watch and appreciate said film...then I guess I could (grudgingly)agree in that situation.

We can always make purists of them later,right?

HMH

 

[Doctor Strange]

Various colorization efforts (and the Star Wars Special Editions) were one of the main reasons for creation of the National Film Registry - to preserve films in their original form:

http://www.loc.gov/film/filmnfr.html

As a longtime film collector (16mm, baby!) and scholar, I take a very hard line on monkeying with old films! Anything that changes films from their original presentation (modifying the aspect ratio [*], colorizing, 3D-ifying, adding deleted footage, redoing the score/soundtrack, etc.) is simply wrong, with the exception of fufilling the filmmaker's original intentions (like moving the opening titles off of the monumental long-take opening shot in Touch of Evil). I admit that there is sometimes a fine line between "restoration" and tampering...

[* As one of the people who first saw Gone With the Wind in its sixties theatrical release with the top and bottom cropped off to make it "widescreen," I am particularly sensitive to this! I contantly adjust my widescreen TV monitor to get to the original aspect ratio of what I'm watching - seeng stuff stretched-to-fit makes me crazy! But I've noticed that many people are utterly oblivous to this and will watch an extremely distorted image with no problem. Of course, these same people are watching insanely rezzed-down images on computers and mobile devices without complaint, so they clearly have a different relationship to movies than me!]

That there are people who "won't watch black and white" reflects a failure in teaching the aesthetics of monochrome, and is mostly the fault of parents and educators. And our culture's entrenched viewpoint that newer is always better - not that us Loungers are taken in by this!

 

[Atomic Age]

As someone who is finishing a feature film, in B&W, I would be horrified if someone decided it needed to be colorized. Having said that, I don't mind if a film is colorized as long as the original B&W version is available also. After all the colorization isn't on the original film, just on a video copy of it.

My biggest problem with colorization however, is the fact that b&w registers different level of luminosity than color does. It's one reason that skin tones NEVER look right in a colorized film. Everyone looks gray and lifeless. Reds go dark on b&w film, so when you try to color something that was red, it just turns to a muddy mess. As a result colors just never look right, and I find it to be unwatchable.

Doug

 

[Atomic Age]

Various colorization efforts (and the Star Wars Special Editions) were one of the main reasons for creation of the National Film Registry - to preserve films in their original form:

http://www.loc.gov/film/filmnfr.html



[* As one of the people who first saw Gone With the Wind in its sixties theatrical release with the top and bottom cropped off to make it "widescreen," I am particularly sensitive to this! I contantly adjust my widescreen TV monitor to get to the original aspect ratio of what I'm watching - seeng stuff stretched-to-fit makes me crazy! But I've noticed that many people are utterly oblivous to this and will watch an extremely distorted image with no problem. Of course, these same people are watching insanely rezzed-down images on computers and mobile devices without complaint, so they clearly have a different relationship to movies than me!]

That there are people who "won't watch black and white" reflects a failure in teaching the aesthetics of monochrome, and is mostly the fault of parents and educators. And our culture's entrenched viewpoint that newer is always better - not that us Loungers are taken in by this!

The National Film Registry was created a year before the Star Wars Special Editions were released. No connection there.

Ah yes the famous, or infamous 70mm blow up of Gone With the Wind! MGM was really reaching with that one! I too am one that insists on the correct aspect ratio. I just had to send a nasty email to Netflix. Many of their new HD releases on the instant view service (available on the PS3 and many other devices) are cropping 2.35:1 films, to 1.78:1 so they fit the HDTV ratio. It seems we have to have the aspect ratio fight all over again.

Doug

 

[HosManHatter]

Doctor Strange,I salute you!

I`m just a "self-made" film buff here,but one of my pet peaves is that perversion they call "pan and scan".I have been able to educate some of my friends on this but *sigh* most of them can`t (or won`t) grasp the concept of aspec ration and it`s importance to a given film.

"I hate those stupid black bars!" Just gotta have my WHOLE big screen plasma screen filled up!

Colorizing *shivering* ....the few occasions I`ve watched a colorized film(holidays)I was not impressed.Felt almost dirty. lol

HMH

 

[Mr E Train]

Doctor Strange,I salute you!

I`m just a "self-made" film buff here,but one of my pet peaves is that perversion they call "pan and scan".I have been able to educate some of my friends on this but *sigh* most of them can`t (or won`t) grasp the concept of aspec ration and it`s importance to a given film.

"I hate those stupid black bars!" Just gotta have my WHOLE big screen plasma screen filled up!

Colorizing *shivering* ....the few occasions I`ve watched a colorized film(holidays)I was not impressed.Felt almost dirty. lol

HMH

I'm with you on the dislike of pan and scan. What's even worse to me now is the 120Hz HDTV's that have what Samsung calls "Auto Motion Plus", but is basically an effect to reduce motion blurring. When I was shopping for my first HDTV a year or so ago, I couldn't figure out why the cheaper 60Hz TV's looked better to me than the 120Hz TV's that the salesmen assured me were much better. If the 120Hz ones were showing a movie, it didn't even look like film. It looked like really high resolution videotape. After doing some research, I found out that the 120Hz HDTV's had the "Auto Motion" effect, and that you can turn it off. I ended up going with a 120Hz Samsung, and the first thing I did was turn off that dadblamed Auto Motion. It looks wonderful, and film looks like film. I'm sure most people don't even notice the Auto Motion effect and think it looks just fine, but I can spot it right away. It's sort of like the difference between film and videotape, and a surprising amount of people can't tell the difference between those either.

 

[HosManHatter]

I`m kind of behind the times as far as television and high fidelity home theater equipment.My Sony Trinitron was one of the last picture tube models before flatscreens really got affordable.Excellent picture quality...considering.
160 lbs. so it`s not fun to move.

Interesting about that auto motion feature on newer sets.Cool that you figured it out,E.

I did not know about netflix altering their HDTV dvds.Sneaky rats! Do you own any of the Criterion Collection dvds? I`ve got a handful and they are usually worth the price but I buy them "like new/used" from amazon or half.com

HMH

 

[bunnyb.gal]

I'm not so sure I would side with the nay say'ers. Some of the better more recent films using a composite of color And black and white were in my opinion better visuals. The little girl in Schindler's List, also were Bond earned his double O status in Casino Royale only served to enhance the films.

Granted these are examples of where it was the directors choice to utilize those effects. Then again perhaps the subject matter of either of those examples in itself weighted more dramatic effect than the medium used to express it.

I would also tend to believe that using this type of effect would only enhance older horror films like the first dracula movie, say if the first glimpse of Count Orlok had shown him in color briefly then revert back to black and white. The same can be said for either the original Frankenstein or the original Mummy. Of films like these we'll never know what the directors opinion would be. But then again they never had the opportunity to work in color medium either.

To colorize the entire film as in the case of The Wizard of Oz, where both mediums in excellent condition exists, it's a matter of choice to the viewer. In no case whatsoever should studios even consider Film Noir genre for colorization. A total waste of effort for the collector and buyers of vintage film. I am more concerned about media laying about in vaults further deteriorating with little interest in producing in DVD format because of lack of purchasing interest as in the case of the Pete Smith Specialties. Agreed these are dated voice over comedies but no less deserving than that of the fifth season of Wild Wild West, Gunsmoke etc.

Unfortunately for some of us and for historical purposes so much footage will never see the light of day again. It seems Hollywood is more interested in taking films that were already in good preservation formats and enhancing it to HiDef which what they really should say is that they are only converting SD to HD. Big Deal!

I am sure many folks are aware that 20th Century did do some restoration work on a series of notable films in their library and it was admirable for them to do so even if the works were in decent enough shape it gave them the chance to release them in a current format for us to enjoy. Unfortunately for us that TCM is of the mindset of Disney in regards to we'll release what we want, when we want!

To add to our chagrin both of those studios are (it seems) run by administrators who obviously don't know what their doing much less what the organization is doing. Don't believe me, take a look at their website(s) or send them an email. nuf said!

It's funny that you should mention Frankenstein as a candidate for colourisation, for it brings to mind a home movie in colour of Boris Karloff in full costume, mugging for the camera, in-between takes I suppose. Point being, the garish green of the make-up did nothing whatsoever to enhance the fright factor! I also think of that wonderful close-up of the monster, and the shadows and depth under the cheekbones and under the eyes that made him look like the cadaver that he was...

 

[Feraud]

I personally support it in many cases, as I'm not really a fan of black and white (whether photography or films, b/w looks ''dead'' to me)..But in some films, colorization would ruin them, such as Casablanca or City Lights.

The desire to colorize b&w film (and changing the creator's work) should never be an option because you do not like the medium.

Provide a few examples where colorization improves an origianal b&w film and the conversation could get interesting.

 

[Mr E Train]

The desire to colorize b&w film (and changing the creator's work) should never be an option because you do not like the medium.

Provide a few examples where colorization improves an origianal b&w film and the conversation could get interesting.

That's not gonna happen, because there aren't any.

 

[HosManHatter]

That's not gonna happen, because there aren't any.

Hear!Hear!

Tell `em,E Train!

:rage:

 

[HadleyH]

I know for many this is a no-go, but I want some members' opinions on this--The colorization of black and white films. I personally support it in many cases, as I'm not really a fan of black and white (whether photography or films, b/w looks ''dead'' to me)..But in some films, colorization would ruin them, such as Casablanca or City Lights.

I love B/W.

but

I adore colorized movies that have been done ONLY in the 1930s particulary musicals.

Only colorized movies that have been colorized in the 30s.

Enough said!

 

[Zombie_61]

As a longtime film collector (16mm, baby!) and scholar, I take a very hard line on monkeying with old films! Anything that changes films from their original presentation (modifying the aspect ratio [*], colorizing, 3D-ifying, adding deleted footage, redoing the score/soundtrack, etc.) is simply wrong, with the exception of fufilling the filmmaker's original intentions (like moving the opening titles off of the monumental long-take opening shot in Touch of Evil). I admit that there is sometimes a fine line between "restoration" and tampering...

I agree with all of the above. With regards to "adding deleted footage", the only time I consider it proper to do so is when it's done at the director's discretion and with his/her approval and assistance. All too often such footage was removed at the studio's request, and it usually results in a "lesser" film in some way. Re-inserting the footage doesn't always improve a film, but IMO it does so more often than not.

As one of the people who first saw Gone With the Wind in its sixties theatrical release with the top and bottom cropped off to make it "widescreen," I am particularly sensitive to this! I contantly adjust my widescreen TV monitor to get to the original aspect ratio of what I'm watching - seeng stuff stretched-to-fit makes me crazy! But I've noticed that many people are utterly oblivous to this and will watch an extremely distorted image with no problem.

"I hate those stupid black bars!" Just gotta have my WHOLE big screen plasma screen filled up!

My wife and I have a good friend who is ridiculously adamant about this. She couldn't care less that she might be missing something because the image has been cropped or distorted, she simply wants it to fill her television screen. shakeshead She loves movies as much as I do (well, almost) and I initially thought she was assuming this contrary stance merely to push my buttons, but she has since convinced me this is her sincere opinion. Fortunately she appreciates black and white films as much as color films, so there's hope.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I love B/W.

but

I adore colorized movies that have been done ONLY in the 1930s particulary musicals.

Only colorized movies that have been colorized in the 30s.

Enough said!

Ah, a fan of Pathechrome!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cCCcXzguSk

 

[sixties.nut]

Fade to Black (completely)

It's funny that you should mention Frankenstein as a candidate for colourisation, for it brings to mind a home movie in colour of Boris Karloff in full costume, mugging for the camera, in-between takes I suppose. Point being, the garish green of the make-up did nothing whatsoever to enhance the fright factor! I also think of that wonderful close-up of the monster, and the shadows and depth under the cheekbones and under the eyes that made him look like the cadaver that he was...

I understand your point completely and bear with me. We are comparing apples and oranges here, with low cost home movie safe-T film and studio grade 35mm film that has been properly cared for. The home movie 8mm/Super8/16mm processes which for the most part over the years have lost their pigmentations, experienced color bleeds or emulsified competely due to the nature of the film itself. This does not even take into account previous celluloid composition films that would crumble just by bringing them to room temp today.

It also brings up another point, lots of subject matters were filmed with ordinary home type film camera's.

A case in point I might mention is on another thread/topic JessiesGirl posted a link to www.archive.org talking about vintage audio broadcasts. At that site they also have some home movies, newsreels, etc, in the public domain.

I was looking in particular at the 1902 San Franscisco earthquake footage. While it has already been converted to digital for download. Whoever did the conversion just did a straight conversion. No restoration or cleaning of any kind to the original. At the very best one could honestly say they were black and grey films and no longer black and white with some resemblance of detail in-between the polars. This short film would have been an excellent example of colorization just to restore the greys of a volatile yet fragile cellulose film of some social importance.

At least due to the fact they have already been digitized there won't be any further deterioration. It's just a shame something wasn't done prior to (or during) the digitization process. This applies to Sally's 5th birthday in 1962 in Kodachrome or Kodacolor as it would to a 1902 earthquake documentation.

All I am saying with regards to colorization is that in the hands of a good telecine operator who is dedicated to film, they can do significant progress in saving older films not really in the mainstream. For historical or entertainment purposes. But coloring for the sake of coloring is like standing in the middle of the 405 in rush hour traffic.

 

[Mahagonny Bill]

That said...if it helps to get more people to actually watch the Classics and if a great film`s being colorized causes more people to watch and appreciate said film...then I guess I could (grudgingly)agree in that situation.

I don't agree with this. First impressions are very important. I would be afraid that someone may watch a colorized version of Sabrina (1954) and never appreciate the original because it looks "wrong". I would rather they watch Sabrina (1995) and hopefully be interested enough to watch the superior original version in glorious B&W.

 

[sixties.nut]

4 to 3, 16 by 9, 110, 120 whatever it takes.

"I hate those stupid black bars!" Just gotta have my WHOLE big screen plasma screen filled up!

Then your really "NOT" gonna like watching 'The Great Escape' hee hee hee.

Pull out your copy and plug 'er in, see if you can tell me what went so horribly wrong? There are others, like it. Lawrence of Arabia comes to mind. There are a few more that don't.

Let's see who's paying attention.

 

[HosManHatter]

I don't agree with this. First impressions are very important. I would be afraid that someone may watch a colorized version of Sabrina (1954) and never appreciate the original because it looks "wrong". I would rather they watch Sabrina (1995) and hopefully be interested enough to watch the superior original version in glorious B&W.

Bill,your logic is sound and reading your reply shows me I did`nt consider the "big picture"(pun intended) with the colorization debate.First impressions indeed.

HMH