Cleavage

[Lily Powers]

I'm just saying, by my standards, Sofia acted worse than Jayne. It's perfectly acceptable to convey polite disbelief, (and I think as far as comments afterwards something along a dry "well, I certainly couldn't wear such a thing" would have been far more ladylike and imply the same sentiment in a more gentle, classy way) without letting someone else's questionable taste in dressing lead to your own questionable actions.

I'm just going by the standard of, if I must regretfully be caught for posterity in one of those two roles; I would rather be underdressed than needlessly unpleasant. It's less ladylike, IMO.

I realize this photo has generated a lot of discussion, but isn't it harsh to judge Sophia Loren, merely 23-years old in that picture, as "needlessly unpleasant" based on a look on her face that was caught in a brief, candid second by a photog? Jayne was marketed as a sex-symbol, a pin-up and appeared in Playboy 2-years before that iconic 1957 photo (taken at a luncheon honoring Sophia Loren), and Sophia was an Italian actress (surprisingly, 1-year younger than Jayne) raised in a very Catholic country. Just two different women, each stunning in her own way, with two different standards of what was acceptable for themselves.

 

[Lady Day]

I would rather be underdressed than needlessly unpleasant. It's less ladylike, IMO.

Please correct me if I am wrong in understanding your point:
So it is better to, in this context, be celebrated by being underdressed (literally) than to show some outward reaction, other than quiet passivness to said underdressing?

What if the person's needlessly unpleasantness was being underdressed?

LD

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

I gotta say, really, her nipple could fall out at any moment. I'd probably be distracted too.

Anyway, what the heck were we talking about REALLY? I fear LD that this thread has become what you thought it would but hoped it wouldn't.

 

[Viola]

What if the person's needlessly unpleasantness was being underdressed?

To me its a matter of degree, when you're talking about dressing, and I don't see it. I respect that you do. Mileage varies.

To me we're not talking about an aggressive act of disrespect (i.e. wearing a tube top to a funeral or church service) so much as two women wearing sleeveless camisoles. And one woman is considerably, if nothing else, chestier than the other woman, so if they were wearing the SAME shirt it would look different. I don't think Jayne's shirt is something I'd have worn, if I had her assets, but I don't see the degree of offense you do, clearly.

 

[cherry lips]

I know my posts lack the relevance and knowledge that (for example) LizzieMaine's offer. LizzieMaine I always enjoy reading your posts, and this thread is no exception! Others have also made a few good points that have taught me more about vintage cleavage views than I knew before. I admit the personal views have interested me too, even if they weren't LD's intention for this thread.

About the Jayne and Sophia pic: Prior to this discussion, I was only familiar with it through Girl Friday's avatar (= a smaller version). The funny thing is, I didn't even notice Sophia Loren lol , and I didn't think of Jayne's breasts at all! The only thing I saw was Jayne, and the way she shines like a bright star.

 

[Miss Golightly]

I realize this photo has generated a lot of discussion, but isn't it harsh to judge Sophia Loren, merely 23-years old in that picture, as "needlessly unpleasant" based on a look on her face that was caught in a brief, candid second by a photog? Jayne was marketed as a sex-symbol, a pin-up and appeared in Playboy 2-years before that iconic 1957 photo (taken at a luncheon honoring Sophia Loren), and Sophia was an Italian actress (surprisingly, 1-year younger than Jayne) raised in a very Catholic country. Just two different women, each stunning in her own way, with two different standards of what was acceptable for themselves.

I have to agree with you - I'm sure we have all had our true feelings on a matter flash across our face - even for the briefest of moments - before controlling ourselves again and falling back into composure. The unfortunate thing here is that Sofia was caught on camera and the moment was frozen forever....

 

[Tourbillion]

Getting back to the question posed in this thread, I've actually found that some vintage is a bit revealing. I've noticed that lower, sometimes even daring necklines are possible on some vintage sportswear after the 1920's (i.e. some sundresses and playsuits aren't at all modest). Not so much on day dresses suitable for housework or the office though.

I made up a 30's Simplicity afternoon dress pattern that is v-neck in crepe de chine and found that at the tea I was at last week, that my slip showed at the top of the V. That means that with a lower slip, that cleavage could have been exposed in an afternoon dress. I've also had problems with undergarments showing on vintage evening gowns.

I don't have a problem with a bit of cleavage per se, but it needs to be tastefully done. I am probably not going to wear backless evening gowns anytime soon though. I prefer to wear undergarments, and wouldn't be comfortable without them. I used to wear midriff baring 40's sport outfits, but I am getting too old and out of shape for that now.

Anyway, my boyfriend recently made a comment to me about cleavage on other women, even after 5. I guess he doesn't want to look at other ladies' cleavage?? So, I guess I am the only one allowed. lol

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

Has anyone seen this?

They seem to have missed the point entirely! lol

 

[i_am_the_scruff]

Cleavage doesn't arise for the small busted in these kinds of dresses, but for those of us who are large busted, often it does.

Exactly. If you look at Sofia's dress it's not exactly a turtle neck. It's really low too, she just doesn't have the boobs for people to notice how low the dress is. And it's acceptable for her because she's not got a large chest.

 

[RebeccaMUA]

I gotta say, really, her nipple could fall out at any moment. I'd probably be distracted too.

I am too! I bet Sophia couldn't look away and was expecting her boob to fall out again at any moment. That's what I took from the photos.

 

[LizzieMaine]

At least one of the accounts of the 1957 luncheon where the original pics were taken suggests that Mansfield wasn't even on the guest list -- but when she (at her press agent's suggestion) showed up, Loren graciously allowed Mansfield to be seated at her own table rather than turn her away. If that's the case, I think, the facial expressions take on a whole different significance. It wasn't about two women jousting over cleavage at all -- it was more about Loren being upset that her own event was being hijacked by an uninvited guest. If those are, in fact, the circumstances, would anyone here have responded differently?

 

[Miss 1929]

And once again, Lizzie amazes me with her inside scoop!

 

[kyda]

I have been reading this thread and have been giving my response a great deal of thought, cleavage is a very subjective item. Each one of us has a different way of looking at an item of clothing being worn and deciding if it shows to much cleavage or not and what would look good on us ( individually), there are times when I see women down the street who I think should not have worn a certain blouse,dress because it shows a bit of cleavage but they may think that I look frumpy.

I had a very large bust, but I was lucky enough to get it reduced, so I now can wear dress's and shirts that I would never have dreamt wearing before, but I think very carefully on what I pick. I have small children so for me I want to set a good example and try to keep the "girls" covered, or if there is a small amount of cleavage showing I make sure it is in the appropriate time slot and at the appropriate event/function, I also try to think how my husband would feel when there are other men staring at my chest.

 

[cecil]

On the Sophia Jayne photo - I'm not happy about one's actions and I'm not happy with another one's reaction. In Sophia's place, I wouldn't have reacted at all. I would've looked straight ahead and smiled.

100% Agreed!

With relation to cleavage in the past, what about sweater girls and bullet bras? Sure, it isn't technically cleavage but the 'lift n separate' and extreme pointiness combined with a wasp waist is just as provocative, in my opinion.

And if we're talking modern-vintage dress, what about the kind of clothes that you see on alot of vintage inspired rockabilly type websites? Lord knows it's not authentic but it is pretty 50s and there are an awful lot of plunging halter necklines!

I can't really comment on what I prefer because I don't even fill an a-cup (seriously, i'm not exaggerating, flat as a board), but alot of my female friends are ample-bosomed and make no secret of it when they go out of an evening. None of us judge each other unkindly on it and none of our male friends do either, but that's because we're all sensible, kind and respectful ladies and gents. Doubt I could say the same for the average drunken lecherous lout though but I get nasty comments from passers by for showing alot of legs just as much as my friends would get for their cleavage, i s'pose.

 

[Fleur De Guerre]

I read an interview with Sophia Loren, where she said that when that picture came out she was covered with embarrassment, because she was not consciously looking at Jayne's cleavage in that disdainful way, more that she was unable to completely ignore it, fearing that Jayne would fall out at any moment, and was unfortuntaely snapped while flicking her gaze over to it. I know I have trouble keeping my gaze off things that fascinate or horrify me (some gravity defying cleavages included! lol ), even if I'm not constantly staring, I'd be flicking my gaze there and away again!

 

[jacqueline101]

I wish i had cleavage. I use to use the miracle bra heavy padding when i was younger. in my high school days when i was wanting cleavage. Now that I am older I dont worry about cleavage. Probably due to the fact I wont ever have it. I do think you can still buy them. It has a low plunging front so you can wear v neck tops and the straps are made so you can wear them for halter tops as well. I think they call that type a convertable bra.

 

[Lady Day]

I had a very large bust, but I was lucky enough to get it reduced, so I now can wear dress's and shirts that I would never have dreamt wearing before, but I think very carefully on what I pick. I have small children so for me I want to set a good example and try to keep the "girls" covered, or if there is a small amount of cleavage showing I make sure it is in the appropriate time slot and at the appropriate event/function, I also try to think how my husband would feel when there are other men staring at my chest.

Consideration of other's reactions, how refreshing

LD

 

[Smuterella]

Consideration of other's reactions, how refreshing

LD

I'm not sure if I am misreading your tone, this sounds sarcastic to me but as the written word can be difficult to interpret correctly I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I think most people are considerate of others reactions in terms of clothing, you see very few "real" women, as opposed to starlets, dressing in very revealing clothes to pick their children up from school or to do their food shopping. At least in London I've not seen it too often. Though our climate might have something to do with that, of course!

Sadly we do have our fair share of Victoria Beckham wannabees but its not a regular thing. To my eyes at least.

I think this opens up an interesting side debate in terms of how we, as individuals who deliberately dress away from the norm, consider others reactions in doing so. To what degree is this vintage "modest" look quite the opposite of modesty. It is an extreme in itself, it makes us noticeable, and there isn't much modesty in drawing attention to yourself even if it is by covering up. [huh]

 

[Lady Day]

I'm not sure if I am misreading your tone, this sounds sarcastic to me but as the written word can be difficult to interpret correctly I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

NO sarcasm at all. I meant how refreshing it is to hear someone consider others reactions before making a decision instead of the mantra of "I can do whatever".

How can you hear typing

LD

 

[crazydaisy]

What Jane is displaying is beyond cleavage. I mean, I was wondering what sort of occasion would that be suitable for!? Posing for a men's magazine would sure do. Or maybe it's a mammary competition and Sofia wasn't told. Either way is not that funny and I can see why Sofia pulls that face. What is even less funny is that she's the one getting the blame, judging by some reactions on this forum.

Now I had a boss who used to wear extremely revealing camisole tops at work and it was because she was an aggressive person who dressed in an aggressive manner. It was hard enough to deal with her personality let alone her tits.

But whether is a projection of someone's personality, confidence or insecurity, bad taste or ignorance of dress codes or of what suits one and what doesn't, I still don't want to have to deal with people's bosoms out on display no matter what, the same way I don't want to have to deal with guys whose trousers are half way down their legs so one can truly appreciate their buttocks or maybe the print of what should be their intimate wear! Sorry, but that puts me, the viewer, in the uncomfortable position of having to see what I don't want to! And the only way one can escape that this days is by staying at home all the time and making sure the television is not on and they don't approach any windows!

In Jane's case, maybe it was just a "faux pas" that accomplished what it was meant to and even more since it gets us talking even after decades -
it's all ok if it's just a publicity stunt, I think I've seen implied. But is it really? Is it all all right if it is just for the publicity, ultimately just for the money? I suppose it is why nowadays we are not shocked to see people selling their cancer stories to tabloids!

And I have to say I'm bored stiff with all this pretense of political correctness which says it is ok for one to display whatever they want but not for the other to flutter an expression, let alone express an opinion. Or if one does dare to commit such a thing, it's got to be sugared to death so it can be swallowed. No thanks. I might next time take the advice of smiling and ignoring altogether. At the end of the day it's a survivor' rule.