Classic education

[The Reno Kid]

There are different schools of thought on what constitutes a classical education. Some (including me) believe that a classical education is the study of the classical languages--Greek and Latin--and the societies from which they arose. There is also some math and history but Greek and Latin form the foundation upon which everything is built. This is the sort of education that you would have gotten if you had attended an English public school such as Rugby or Eton in the nineteenth century. It's also the kind of education most of America's founding fathers (with the notable exception of Washington) received. Thomas Jefferson, referring to his own classical education said, in a letter to Dr. Joseph Priestly,

"I thank on my knees, him who directed my early education, for putting into my possession this rich source of delight..."​

Others define classical education in terms of methodology. Many believe that an education is classical if it is based on the trivium and content is secondary. Dorothy L. Sayers (of Lord Peter Wimsey fame) wrote a very good essay called The Lost Tools of Learning that more or less defines the trivium approach.

Classical education began to fade with the introduction of the modern educational philosophy and methods of John Dewey. In the last two or three decades, there has been a resurgence of interest in the methods and content of classical education. There is a big classical movement among homeschoolers, but it is certainly not confined to the home. Quite a few classically-oriented (usually religious) schools have started up and there is a growing number of secular, publicly-funded classical charter schools. I know of at least two in Colorado, for example. There are even a few colleges out there such as St. John's College and Thomas Aquinas College that take a classical approach.

There really isn't room here to go into the details of the various facets of classical education. If anyone is really interested, I recommend two very good books: Climbing Parnassus by Tracy Lee Simmons and Who Killed Homer by Victor Davis Hanson and John Heath.

 

[Classics]

Who Killed Homer by Victor Davis Hanson and John Heath.

A very interesting and enlightening read, but some of their critiques of the field are way off the mark, in my opinion. Also, I feel they dismiss modern critical theory (often, true, patently absurd, but often providing interesting and worthwhile insights) out of hand by ridicule, rather than providing a decent argument.

 

[The Reno Kid]

As a product of that sort of education (undergraduate major in Classics, minor in Philosophy) and a purveyor of it (graduate student in Classics), I wholehearted support it...

I am jealous. One of my regrets is that I didn't receive a classical education. But as someone (me) once said, "A life without regrets would be a sad thing indeed." Luckily, one really is never too old to learn. I am trying to remedy some of the faults of my earlier education through self study. I hope to eventually pursue a graduate degree in classical studies.

 

[The Reno Kid]

A very interesting and enlightening read, but some of their critiques of the field are way off the mark, in my opinion. Also, I feel they dismiss modern critical theory (often, true, patently absurd, but often providing interesting and worthwhile insights) out of hand by ridicule, rather than providing a decent argument.

I agree. Not a flawless book, but one offering some valuable insights.

 

[Classics]

I am jealous. One of my regrets is that I didn't receive a classical education. But as someone (me) once said, "A life without regrets would be a sad thing indeed." Luckily, one really is never too old to learn. I am trying to remedy some of the faults of my earlier education through self study. I hope to eventually pursue a graduate degree in classical studies.

I'm very willing to help you out. I don't know how far along you are. For the absolute basics, Textkit.com provides free pdfs of out of copyright (and occasionally hard to find) textbooks and reference works. I learned Latin from Ecce, Romani! which is certainly too childish for anyone out of high school (it follows a family in cute stories- quite fun and I have fond memories, but its somewhat tiresome after a while. The Greek version is Athenaze. Both are good textbooks, if you don't mind the target audience). Greek was from Crosby and Schaeffer's "An Introduction to Greek" which suffers only because it assumes the student already has Latin. In Latin, I swear by "Learn to Read Latin" by Keller and Russel. Hanson and Quinn's Intensive Greek course is good, but, well, intensive and difficult to self-teach. You should also get Lewis Elementry Latin dictionary until you graduate to the Oxford Latin Dictionary and Middle Liddel (or Lewis and Scott, medium sized) until you graduate to the Great Scott (Lewis, Scott, and Jones). Smyth's Greek Grammar is standard in English and Allen and Greenough, revised by Mahoney, is standard for Latin. If you German is good, the revisions by Gerth and Stegman of Raphael Kuehner's Griechishe Grammatik and Lateinishe Grammatik (respectively) are standards in the field. Ernout and Meillet are standard in French and more recent (ergo with better linguistics and revisions of details) than Kuehner, but in French. Albert Rijksbaron gives the best treatment of Greek Conditional clauses I've ever found.

I agree. Not a flawless book, but one offering some valuable insights.

True. Many of their outrageous sounding claims are in fact outrageous. The worst part, though, is that they seem to misunderstand the Ph.D.- it's designed to prove that the student can do original research on their own. It's not another marker of classroom learning, but rather ability to research and produce scholarship. This is why many wonderful scholars, up until about the '50's, were only Masters instead of Doctors.

 

[Samsa]

It's funny - I recently discovered that St. John's College (the US one) exists, and thought "I should have gone there!" If I could do undergrad over again, I would aim for something like it - studying the western canon, along with math and science.

As to Greek and Latin, I would love to learn, but am not sure where I would find the time. If I won the lottery and didn't need to work or go to school, one of the first things I would do is get myself a tutor to teach me Greek and Latin. I don't think that's going to happen, though...

Every now and again I dust off my copy of Wheelock's Latin, but don't get very far.[huh]

 

[Classics]

It's funny - I recently discovered that St. John's College (the US one) exists, and thought "I should have gone there!" If I could do undergrad over again, I would aim for something like it - studying the western canon, along with math and science.

As to Greek and Latin, I would love to learn, but am not sure where I would find the time. If I won the lottery and didn't need to work or go to school, one of the first things I would do is get myself a tutor to teach me Greek and Latin. I don't think that's going to happen, though...

Every now and again I dust off my copy of Wheelock's Latin, but don't get very far.[huh]

I'm not a huge fan of Wheelock. It doesn't seem to work for most people.

I almost went to St. John's. I was about about *this* close, but I'm happy with where I ended up.

There are quite good translations of the major works, and many of the minor ones, though. Go through it all chronologically. I'd spend a summer doing that gladly. I probably should, too.

And if you do happen to win the lottery...

 

[The Reno Kid]

I'm very willing to help you out. I don't know how far along you are. For the absolute basics, Textkit.com provides free pdfs of out of copyright (and occasionally hard to find) textbooks and reference works...

Wow! Thanks for the tips. I have been lurking and occasionaly posting on Textkit for a year or two. I have really only gotten serious with Latin in the past year. I am currently most of the way through D'Ooge. After that, I am trying to decide if I want to start Greek with Pharr or White. I love Homer, but I really want to read Aristotle (and Plato, Herodotus, Thucydides, etc.)

I've been collecting books for a few years and I have a pretty good set of Latin texbooks and grammars as well as a more modest collection of Greeks. I even picked up a nice copy of Lewis & Short a few months back. It's huge. I'm afraid I have an addiction.

 

[Samsa]

There are quite good translations of the major works, and many of the minor ones, though. Go through it all chronologically. I'd spend a summer doing that gladly. I probably should, too.

I'm working my way through Richmond Lattimore's translation of The Iliad right now. I've been neglecting it the last couple of days due to a sore throat, though. (I'm reading it aloud.)

Next it's going to be the Odyssey. Do you have a recommendation as to which translation is best?

And if you do happen to win the lottery...

I'll let you know... but don't hold your breath.

 

[zaika]

I think a classic education does produce a well-rounded person. If nothing else, it assists in giving more people common points of reference.

i agree with this.

i wish i had had a classical education m'self. for now i'm just reading greek philosophers and greek plays. gotta start somewhere.

 

[Classics]

Wow! Thanks for the tips. I have been lurking and occasionaly posting on Textkit for a year or two. I have really only gotten serious with Latin in the past year. I am currently most of the way through D'Ooge. After that, I am trying to decide if I want to start Greek with Pharr or White. I love Homer, but I really want to read Aristotle (and Plato, Herodotus, Thucydides, etc.)

I've been collecting books for a few years and I have a pretty good set of Latin texbooks and grammars as well as a more modest collection of Greeks. I even picked up a nice copy of Lewis & Short a few months back. It's huge. I'm afraid I have an addiction.

The Big Lewis and Short or the small one? The big one is perfectly serviceable and actually covers more Late Latin than the OLD.

I've put at least five thousand dollars into my classics books. You're not addicted 'till you've had three used book sites open at once comparing shipping prices from Germany

I'm working my way through Richmond Lattimore's translation of The Iliad right now. I've been neglecting it the last couple of days due to a sore throat, though. (I'm reading it aloud.)

Next it's going to be the Odyssey. Do you have a recommendation as to which translation is best?

You could stick with Latttimore- he also did an Odyssey, which is the same as his Iliad in style and feel (that is to say, almost transparently Homer's Greek- it's a very close translations). Fagles introduced by Knox is quite good. Looser with the Greek than Lattimore, but better poetry, I think. Knox is quite eminent in the field. McCrorie introduced by Martin (I met him once and failed to talk him into taking me as a graduate student) is brand new (2003) and Martin is himself a scholar on par with Knox. I haven't read his translation- a review is here: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2004/2004-09-41.html. Lombardo is often read as well, but again I haven't read it and have no basis for recommendation or warning. I wouldn't bother with Rouse or Rieu and Chapman is interesting but read I feel more for his English more than Homer's tale.

 

[The Reno Kid]

The Big Lewis and Short or the small one? The big one is perfectly serviceable and actually covers more Late Latin than the OLD.

The BIG one. The OLD is still on my list.

I've put at least five thousand dollars into my classics books. You're not addicted 'till you've had three used book sites open at once comparing shipping prices from Germany

I haven't spent quite that much but I'm on my way. I did drop about $200 on a set of vellum quarter-bound latin texts published between 1812-1824. It was one of those things I just couldn't live without. I'm still struggling to read them with any proficiency, but I'm having fun trying.

Fagles introduced by Knox is quite good. Looser with the Greek than Lattimore, but better poetry, I think. Knox is quite eminent in the field.

I've read Fagles' Iliad and enjoyed it thoroughly.

 

[Fancy Mouse]

Classics addiction

I've put at least five thousand dollars into my classics books. You're not addicted 'till you've had three used book sites open at once comparing shipping prices from Germany

lol What a great thread. I have almost finished my undergraduate degree and it's just so lovely to find a discussion like this to remind me why I love it. I like to lurk around antiquarian bookshops buying up old prose composition manuals and the matching keys.

 

[Classics]

The BIG one. The OLD is still on my list.

I haven't spent quite that much but I'm on my way. I did drop about $200 on a set of vellum quarter-bound latin texts published between 1812-1824. It was one of those things I just couldn't live without. I'm still struggling to read them with any proficiency, but I'm having fun trying.

I don't have the Lewis and Short yet. I'm heading towards Greek professionally and might not ever get around to it.

I'm jealous of the vellum quarter bounds. Who's in the set? I just myself got a copy of the Iliad commentary by C. G. Heyne's (not H. Heine, the poet) in the same sort of binding. It's the gem of my collection.

What a great thread. I have almost finished my undergraduate degree and it's just so lovely to find a discussion like this to remind me why I love it. I like to lurk around antiquarian bookshops buying up old prose composition manuals and the matching keys.

A classics major? Are you thinking of graduate school? Really amazing old books can be found in those shops. It's almost a tragedy that people part with them.

 

[Jack Scorpion]

I'm not sure having read The Odyssey, The Illiad, Paradise Lost and The Faerie Queene has been too helpful to me these days.

 

[Samsa]

I'm not sure having read The Odyssey, The Illiad, Paradise Lost and The Faerie Queene has been too helpful to me these days.

I doubt that there is much gain to be had from reading classics; I read them for the pleasure they bring me, and that's it. So if it's drudgery for someone to read Homer, then they shouldn't do it. But the 150 pages or so of the Iliad that I've read so far have brought me enough aesthetic pleasure to make it well worth the time.

 

[Jack Scorpion]

I doubt that there is much gain to be had from reading classics; I read them for the pleasure they bring me, and that's it. So if it's drudgery for someone to read Homer, then they shouldn't do it. But the 150 pages or so of the Iliad that I've read so far have brought me enough aesthetic pleasure to make it well worth the time.

With the exception of Paradise Lost, which I had to read twice!, I enjoyed the reads. But I like to joke on their quote-on-quote educational value.

 

[Classics]

With the exception of Paradise Lost, which I had to read twice!, I enjoyed the reads. But I like to joke on their quote-on-quote educational value.

Of Man's first Disobedience and the fruit thereof I sing...

The joke of that poem is that the Devil is the hero, and the lesson of the joke is that humanity tends towards the worse end of the spectrum than the better. It's simply Milton's retelling of the Tree of Knowledge story from Genesis, which I feel has been completely misunderstood for ages.

But I'm not going to argue that you're some kind of fool or uncultured baboon if you don't fine Homer rapturous. On the contrary, non disputandum de gustibus. I dislike reading Beowulf or Plautus.

 

[Fancy Mouse]

I don't have the Lewis and Short yet. I'm heading towards Greek professionally and might not ever get around to it.

I'm jealous of the vellum quarter bounds. Who's in the set? I just myself got a copy of the Iliad commentary by C. G. Heyne's (not H. Heine, the poet) in the same sort of binding. It's the gem of my collection.



A classics major? Are you thinking of graduate school? Really amazing old books can be found in those shops. It's almost a tragedy that people part with them.

Yes, I'm a classics major. I'm thinking of graduate school but for the next three weeks I'm trying to think more about handing in my undergraduate work.

 

[The Reno Kid]

I'm jealous of the vellum quarter bounds. Who's in the set? I just myself got a copy of the Iliad commentary by C. G. Heyne's (not H. Heine, the poet) in the same sort of binding.

There are 18 volumes total. I just pulled a couple out of the bookcase and found that I had mis-remembered. They are actually 3/4 vellum bound with a very nice marbled paper for the front and back covers. (I confused them with a 3-volume Teubner Seneca Opera set.) They are really in quite amazing condition for being nearly two centuries old. The gold-stamped leather inset spine label is slightly chipped on a couple of volumes. There is a little bit of minor rubbing on the cover paper of a few of them. Other than that, they are nearly pristine. All bindings are tight and all covers are entirely intact. They were published by T. Davison, London. As for authors:

Caesar (of course)
Plautus (3 volumes)
Claudianus
Florus & Paterculus
Pliny (Younger)
Quintilian (2 volumes)
Suetonius
Silius Italicus
Lucretius
Martial
Nepos
Tacitus (3 volumes)
Terence

I try to keep my eyes open for good deals and I just got lucky with these. I have found a few of the individual volumes in my set for sale in the $160-$240 range so I don't feel at all bad about paying $200 for the set (plus shipping from the UK).