Christmas without Christ? Huh?

[HoosierDaddy]

...However...I look at the crucifixion as a good thing.

 

[Senator Jack]

I've stayed out of this one, even though I wrote an essay on the topic for another site last year. But I seem to dimly recall from my parochial schooldays that the cross was covered in purple cloth during Advent. Perhaps it's only a Roman Catholic tradition, or maybe I'm mixing it up with Lent. I'll admit to being the typical Italian-American lapsed Catholic, and over the last fourteen years I've been attending Greek Orthodox service. Can anyone refresh my memory?

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[Avalon]

I've stayed out of this one, even though I wrote an essay on the topic for another site last year. But I seem to dimly recall from my parochial schooldays that the cross was covered in purple cloth during Advent. Perhaps it's only a Roman Catholic tradition, or maybe I'm mixing it up with Lent. I'll admit to being the typical Italian-American lapsed Catholic, and over the last fourteen years I've been attending Greek Orthodox service. Can anyone refresh my memory?

Regards,

Senator Jack

It's been years, but I do believe you're right on both counts. Purple represents royalty, so the cross is draped in purple during both Lent and Advent.

 

[Haversack]

Senator Jack wrote: "But I seem to dimly recall from my parochial schooldays that the cross was covered in purple cloth during Advent."

Advent, like Lent is a season of fasting, hence the veiled cross. The Episcopal Church, being catholic, followed this practice as well. Growing up, it added a sense of mystery and anticipation to the seasons and made the Easter morning and Christmas Day service all the more significant as what was hidden was now reveiled.

As to the original post about the store window display, it sounds to me as if it were a visual representation of the expression 'Happy Holidays' and could therefore signify little or much.

Haversack.

 

[Vermifuge]

God help us then. The FOUNDING FATHERS based this land on GOD, and freedom of religion, to worship GOD, in your own way.

Our society is going to Hell in a hand basket.

If you believe in hell

 

[Vermifuge]

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It's an odd thing ... I was walking down my little L.A. neighborhood (one of the few here that people actually *walk* in) and passed by our local independent bookstore, a somewhat artsy joint. They had a window display of holiday greeting cards sold within. Lots of very abstract Christmas trees, wreaths, holly, snow, and Santas. Not one -- not even one -- showed the baby Jesus, Mary and Joseph, the star, the shepherds, etc. Thank goodness, one card had a cubist menorah; otherwise, you'd get no sense that December has any religious holidays at all.


This was strange for me. I spent the previous seven Decembers in Chile, where most holiday cards have pictures (mostly photos of Medieval and Renaissance paintings) showing the nativity. Granted, Chile is a culturally Catholic country; but isn't this the season of Christian and Jewish -- in other words, religious -- holidays, even in Los Angeles? Is there any real point to the 'celebrating' in December if you're going to ignore the source of its holidays? Has it come down to the exchanging of gifts, the partygoing, and the holiday bonuses?


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Trying to stay within the constraints of this topic and not trying to step on any toes….

Most winter holidays have roots that go beyond Christianity. Most of them revolve around the winter solace and for good reason.

WIKI: “A winter festival was traditionally the most popular festival of the year in many cultures, in part because there was less agricultural work to be done during the winter.”

Atheist, Agnostics, Catholic or Jewish, cant we just take the time we have to spend time with family before time runs out? My grand parts are 86 this year and Christmas is my chance to catch up and be with them. Who knows how many more opportunities I will get.

I think that’s what is important, and not what is pictured on a greeting card.

 

[MoggyMan]

Statutory Holidays

Forgive me if I'm repeating someone else's opinion (I haven't read each and every post), but I believe the explanation is simple. "Holiday" is an inclusive term, as we all get statutory holidays from work over this period - there's Christmas Day, Boxing Day, and New Year's Day all within the space of a week. "Merry Christmas" excludes too many people, of many faiths, as our demographics have skewed dramatically over the past 50 years. "Happy Holidays" includes everyone, as we all get these statutory holidays (or we're suitably compensated if we don't). Merchants have a vested interest in appealing to the broadest possible audience, and "gift giving" has become synonomous with "Happy Holidays", in that we're indoctrinated into thinking the two are mutually inclusive. Merchants are happiest if everyone is shopping, and the smart ones will include specific items that appeal to their specific clientele, religious artifacts included.

 

[Weston]

Two points I find interesting:
1. The cross is not a non-sequitur in the nativity. One must keep in mind the reason Christ was born. He did not become incarnate for any other reason than this.

2. Matthew has hit upon a vital truth rarely recognized by anyone:
Non-believers say "I must be true to myself and my ideas! Why can't you understand?"

Believers say "I must be true to God's way of living. Why can't you understand?"

Why is it so difficult to recognize your own ability to choose life's decisions and truths for yourself, and yet so difficult to understand the desire of others to follow something outside themselves?

 

[olive bleu]

Weston, i really appreciate your calming insight in this thread. Thanks.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Two points I find interesting:
1. The cross is not a non-sequitur in the nativity. One must keep in mind the reason Christ was born. He did not become incarnate for any other reason than this.

Well, yes. But the crucifixion was also, on a very real level, a gruesome, painful and horrific death. It seems almost sadistic to have it loitering next to the nativity, which celebrates birth, a new life, a new family, and a new hope. Mixing blood and vinegar into mother's milk will sour it.


.

 

[Senator Jack]

Originally Posted by Avalon:

It's been years, but I do believe you're right on both counts. Purple represents royalty, so the cross is draped in purple during both Lent and Advent.

Thanks for the brain refresh, Avalon, but I seem to recall that during Advent the cross was actually covered rather than draped. This would be in line with Marc's thinking it a bit gruesome to conjointly celebrate the birth and death of Christ. Again, I could be wrong.

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[Mr Nick]

The cross and the nativity

Mixing the two is not contradictory when you truly understand the reason for both. The Bible clearly states that God's plan of salvation for mankind and the restoration of man's relationship with Him was to be through Himself coming to earth in the form of a man and sacrificing His life for us all because of His Love for us. This was determined before the creation of the world. In this context the gruesome painful death of the cross only serves to show the magnitude and intensity of God's love for all mankind. In reality, it makes one wonder which was the bigger sacrifice, the death on the cross or the Incarnation of God as a baby born to a poor couple in a smelly stable? Pardon my preaching but in order to understand, one has to view the entire story in context. Also, not to be argumentantive, but one's refusal to accept truth does not alter its validity! May the true message and meaning of Christmas and the Cross become a reality to each and everyone of you in a real and personal way!:eusa_clap

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Mixing the two is not contradictory when you truly understand the reason for both.

*sigh* Yes, I understand. (Except where you seem to equate death by crucifixion with birth in a "smelly stable" to a poor couple. Can the two situations even be considered comparable?)

Mixing the two is not contradictory ... the gruesome painful death of the cross only serves to show the magnitude and intensity of God's love for all mankind ... one has to view the entire story in context.

Your statements beg the question: would you, Mr. Nick, have a problem with a sculpture showing the baby Jesus nailed to a cross? After all, wouldn't such a depiction be consistent with your point? And if not, why not?


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[Girl Friday]

Festivus for the rest of us!

Airing of Greivances!

 

[Avalon]

Only eight more days 'til Chrismahanukwanzakah!

 

[carebear]

Only eight more days 'til Chrismahanukwanzakah!

The only holiday worth 746 points in Scrabble.

 

[Senator Jack]

Posted by Marc Chevalier

Your statements beg the question:

Careful with that phrase, Marc. Fowler would slap you on the wrists for that.

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Your statements beg the question ...

Careful with that phrase, Marc. Fowler would slap you on the wrists for that.

Fowler can beg my big fat question, for all I care.





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[Pilgrim]

Weston said:

Non-believers say "I must be true to myself and my ideas! Why can't you understand?"

Believers say "I must be true to God's way of living. Why can't you understand?"

Why is it so difficult to recognize your own ability to choose life's decisions and truths for yourself, and yet so difficult to understand the desire of others to follow something outside themselves?

I don't have any problem recognizing that. The difficulty I have is understanding why so many others want to see their ideas represented in any display or public exhibition. This quickly results in the need to show everyone's ideas, at which point exhibitions and displays become cluttered to the point of being ugly and meaningless.

This seems to me to be one of those areas in which it is graceful and appropriate to simply be steadfast in your own beliefs, hold them within you, to be sustained by them, and not to create issues simply because you can.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

The difficulty I have is understanding why so many others want to see their ideas represented in any display or public exhibition.

Nationality is an idea, one among many. A nation's flag represents this idea. Would you suggest, then, that the American flag not be shown in any display or public exhibition, other than that which is government-sponsored? (I'm not judging you; I'm trying to understand your line of reasoning.)


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