Can you help me date this item??

[texasgirl]

ShrinkingViolet, I'd PM LaMedicine. I bet she'd be able to help you.

 

[ShrinkingViolet]

Thanks for the hint, texasgirl, I'll do that.

 

[LaMedicine]

I hate to have to burst your bubble but....
Off hand, I'd say it's a souvenir kimono made for Westerners. The period is probably post WW II, '40s-'50s when there was a demand for such souvenirs due to the US occupation and the Korean War following that, but it could be more recent than that, since the print pattern itself is pretty classic.
I say it's a souvenir, because of the tag, and that it doesn't have the construction of a true kimono.

1) A true kimono doesn't have the kind of tag as you would see in Western clothes, as a matter of fact, most do not have tags at all. Those made through the kimono sections of department stores will have the store tags, but they are sewn in not at the top center, but on the inner side of the collar, close to the bottom on the right side. Very small, about an inch in length and less tha half an inch wide.

2) Kimono fabrics are about half the width of western fabrics. They are approximately 14" wide, and one bolt is approximately 14 yards long. One bolt is for one kimono. This means that there is always a back seam down the back of the kimono. The length of women's kimono is approximately the same as her height, or an inch or two shorter. This is because it is tucked up just below the waist under the sash. Hence, the drape seen around the hip when worn. Vintage kimono are in general one size, approx. 50 1/2" (128cm) from wrist to wrist and 62"(158cm) in length. Modern kimono are usually constructed to the measurments of the person it's made for, as many of us are taller than our parents, so mine are 52"(132cm) from wrist to wrist and 64" (163cm) in length.

3) Kimono are lined or unlined, depending on the season it is to be worn. The materials used for summer--hence unlined-- and fall/winter/spring --hence lined-- are completely different. Summer materials are light(thin) and transparent enough that the color of juban (under kimono) shows through. Winter kimono are made of heavier fabrics. There are some unlined kimonos for early summer and early fall that are made of less heavy fabrics compared to mid-winter ones and not transparent like summer fabrics, but these have linings along the back from the waist down to the hem. Also, cotton and wool kimonos are basically unlined.

4) The lining of present day kimono is white silk. Up to late '40s-very early '50s, they were red, actually. However, with both modern kimono and vintage kimono, the lining strip around the wrist and from below the waist to the hem in the front and from knee to hem in the back, is of a different fabric, the colors chosen to compliment the color of the outer fabric, meant to be seen when the hemline flutters. With the more formal kimonos, the inner hem lining will be of the same fabric and the design the continuation of the kimono itself.

5) Kimono are basically hand sewn, except for mass made synthetic fabric kimono and yukata. The silk is too delicate to stand the pull of the sewing machine. I actually personally experienced this, when I had an inexpensive kimono made. The shop had a choice of being sewn by hand, or using a newfangled high tech sewing machine, so I opted for the latter. After I had worn the kimono only once, I found that the back seam had pulled and weakened the fabric. Never again that for me. Being handmade is also the reason that most kimonos don't have tags, especially vintage ones.

6) The *underwear* for kimono is a juban, which is unlined, save for a lining along the back from the waist down to just above the hem. The lining is to strengthen the fabric from being pulled when sitting down. The length, contrary to a kimono, is from neck to floor, so around 50" give or take a few, from collar to hem. It is usually made of silk, but lighter than the kimono fabric themselves, and the fabric patterns range from solid colors to bright prints. At a first glance, I thought that from the posted pic that it might be a juban but, I'm pretty sure it isn't because of a) the tag, and b) it doesn't have a back seam.

If the fabric is synthetic, then you probably can hand wash it in cold water. If it's silk, it would be better to take it to a trusty cleaner and have it dry cleaned. For frist aid cleaning of sweat lines along the collar and wrist, we dab some benzene onto cotton or a clean white towel and tap-clean it along the sweat line, so you could try that first in a small corner and see how the colors stand that treatment.

Incidentally, since kimono are all the same shape, it's the weave of the fabric itself, and the design of the prints that designate how formal/casual a kimono is.

If any of you find an item you are interested on eBay or elsewhere, just PM me the link, and I'll check it out and let you know what I think.

 

[ShrinkingViolet]

LaMedicine, thank you so much for you insight. It was a very interesting read And don't worry, I suspected it might be a Western watered-down version because of the label in English, but I still love it to bits! Makes me feel very glamourous.Cherrylips, if you behave I may let you try it on on some occasion
Is there a thread about vintage kimonos somewhere? I'd like to see more pictures of authentic as well as souvenir versions.

I checked again and the green splatter isn't dye bleeding but just the colours from the inside showing through the fabric. But I'll try the cleaning tips suggested on a small corner of the fabric. Thanks again!

 

[Sunny]

That is simply fascinating, LaMedicine. I may take you up on your offer sometime myself!

 

[LaMedicine]

Is there a thread about vintage kimonos somewhere? I'd like to see more pictures of authentic as well as souvenir versions.

I checked again and the green splatter isn't dye bleeding but just the colours from the inside showing through the fabric. But I'll try the cleaning tips suggested on a small corner of the fabric. Thanks again!

No, as far as I know, there's no comprehensive thread in the FL about kimono, vintage or otherwise. I did contemplate putting up a kimono tutorial, but never got around to it. If there's some interest among you, I'm willing to do so, though it may take some time.

I have my bridal kimono pic up in the wedding pic thread in Steamer Trunk, and there were some other pics here and there, but I think the threads where I posted them got lost in the two great FL crashes earlier this year.

Unless I see the fabric in person, I won't really be able to tell, but there is a possibility that the flowers are hand painted, not mass and machine printed. The flowers on the white side are probably chrythanthemums. The cherry blossoms are for spring, the mums autmn.

Incidentally, I'm no true expert on vintage kimonos, I can't really tell what patterns come from what period in the sense of concisely dating something. A lot of the patterns have been passed down through time, and there are a number of old kimono makers whose history go back hundreds of years, the oldest I know of goes back 450 years, and they have kept their pattern books, so they can revive the designs anytime they want to, and they actually do so from time to time. However, there are some differences in the details of construction that helps date a kimono so long as it is in its original condition--often, with old kimono, they are unraveled, then washed and resewn, in which case the linings will be changed to new ones, so even if the fabric is vintage, the lining may be new which will make it harder to date the kimono. What I know of old kimonos, I know because my 84 year old mother still has all her kimono, most of which were made between '45-'61, and I know which ones were made around when.

Sunny, you're welcome to. I have some friends in the DFW area, and I hope to visit them sometime next year. I intend to pack a kimono or two, if only just for show and tell

 

[Laura Chase]

Is there a thread about vintage kimonos somewhere? I'd like to see more pictures of authentic as well as souvenir versions.

Ichiroya is a great kimono-resource, they have a great glossary and an amazing amount of kimonos, and they are very sweet and helpful. That's where I got my vintage kimono.

Your kimono is very lovely!

 

[Sunny]

No, as far as I know, there's no comprehensive thread in the FL about kimono, vintage or otherwise. I did contemplate putting up a kimono tutorial, but never got around to it. If there's some interest among you, I'm willing to do so, though it may take some time.

YES. (No hurry, though! I'm not in a hurry either.)

Sunny, you're welcome to. I have some friends in the DFW area, and I hope to visit them sometime next year. I intend to pack a kimono or two, if only just for show and tell

That would be wonderful!

 

[Tinseltown]

The site says it's from the 50s or 60s.. But does it look real to you or like a 80s repro? If you darken the light on your screen, you can se the detailing of the shades. I am probably replacing them with more harebell-looking shades.
Also, if you own or have seen lamps like these before.. what did they go for?? This is 138 bucks - but I hear they sell like hot potatoes in my city, so maybe it's a fair price...?

EDIT: These are the kind of shades I want...

 

[StaceFace]

I'm guessing my coat is from the 40's or 50's, but I really can't tell[huh]

 

[decodoll]

I'd say it's most likely late 50's - early 60's. Forstmann was bought by J.P. Stevens in 1957.

 

[StaceFace]

Thanks, decodall! That's nice to know.

 

[Tinseltown]

The site says it's from the 50s or 60s.. But does it look real to you or like a 80s repro? If you darken the light on your screen, you can se the detailing of the shades. I am probably replacing them with more harebell-looking shades.
Also, if you own or have seen lamps like these before.. what did they go for?? This is 138 bucks - but I hear they sell like hot potatoes in my city, so maybe it's a fair price...?

I don't wanna spam, but can someone please help me date this??
I think its real brass as its an insanely heavy lamp. Also on the top the brass is a bit blotchy.. does brass do that?
Also theres a little press-switch button for turning the lights on and it's white.. don't know if that dates anything. I am reposting because I am going to get it tomorrow, but will ask for my money back if it's some cheapo 80s repro.
Also I am thinking it maybe be 40s even? I have no clue. Lamps ar not my forté.

 

[KittyT]

Also on the top the brass is a bit blotchy.. does brass do that?

Yep. It's kindof like the brass equivalent of tarnish on silver. It usually cleans up without a problem if you use brass cleaner.

 

[Tinseltown]

Yep. It's kindof like the brass equivalent of tarnish on silver. It usually cleans up without a problem if you use brass cleaner.

Thank you so much! What about the dating, what would you say?

 

[Vintage Betty]

The site says it's from the 50s or 60s.. But does it look real to you or like a 80s repro? If you darken the light on your screen, you can se the detailing of the shades. I am probably replacing them with more harebell-looking shades.
Also, if you own or have seen lamps like these before.. what did they go for?? This is 138 bucks - but I hear they sell like hot potatoes in my city, so maybe it's a fair price...?

Quite honestly, this looks like a modern repro as my guess. Here's my clues:

1) Base: Looks like spun brass (usually denoting modern manufacture, typical of India or China) instead of stamped out of a mold as was typical during the post-war period.
2) The color is not right. Antique brass has a particular patina, and it darkens with age due to a variety of factors.
3) The connectors to the lamps (above the lampshades) don't look right. If you look at antique lamps, the connectors (where the piping with the wiring ends and before the switch) it appears light, or thin in the piping, and the connector itself doesn't look the standard shape of the era.
4) The wiring emitting from the base is modern. Did the company mention they replaced the wiring and plug?

All of these *hint* at a modern lamp, but it's really hard to tell from a single picture and I could be dead wrong. Here's a tip: How much does the package weigh for shipping?

Look on a modern website of a lamp that's similar and see the weight. Modern brass is often coated or actual brass is lighter (thinner) thus resulting in less weight. Antique brass is many times thicker and brass all the way through the piece (think plumbing parts - brass parts, for example). Of course, they coated brass during the post-war period too, but this is just a cheap way of quickly trying to see what you are receiving.

Good luck-

Vintage Betty

 

[Tinseltown]

Thank you so much!!!
The lamp itself is VERY heavy.
But all your other obersavtions make me wanna cancel this lamp.
I am just so set on getting one of these lamps...but maybe I should cool down and wait for the right one, for the right price!!
The site says it's 50s or 60s, but if it's 80s I am definately not paying that price. I am guessing the wiring isn't new.. the switch button is white too.
The shades look more 70s too right?

Thanks sweetie.. you just saved me 130-something bucks.

 

[Vintage Betty]

Thank you so much!!!
The lamp itself is VERY heavy.
But all your other obersavtions make me wanna cancel this lamp.
I am just so set on getting one of these lamps...but maybe I should cool down and wait for the right one, for the right price!!
The site says it's 50s or 60s, but if it's 80s I am definately not paying that price. I am guessing the wiring isn't new.. the switch button is white too.
The shades look more 70s too right?

Thanks sweetie.. you just saved me 130-something bucks.

Well, I'm glad to be of help, but also hate to have you miss something you might regret. The switch and plug could have been replaced (but WHY didn't they use black switches and electrical cords? :eusa_doh: ). Why don't you call these people and chat with them? If it's that heavy, it might be the real deal. Oh, and it's really common to not have the shades come with the lamp, so I wouldn't worry about that either.

 

[Tinseltown]

Well, I'm glad to be of help, but also hate to have you miss something you might regret. The switch and plug could have been replaced (but WHY didn't they use black switches and electrical cords? :eusa_doh: ). Why don't you call these people and chat with them? If it's that heavy, it might be the real deal. Oh, and it's really common to not have the shades come with the lamp, so I wouldn't worry about that either.

LOL.. I know. Black would have been better. They say its 50s/60s... they have a lot of amazing antiques but I don't know how lamp savvy they are.
Also the stem of the lamp is not totally straight up and down.. its actually fuller on the middle.
But eventhough it's heavy you still reckon its a repro right??
Also it doesn't look like any other lamp in this style I've seen from the 50s. Those I've seen have the "foot" you describe, in black iron totally or black iron AND brass...

 

[MaryDeluxe]

Tinseltown...I'm gonna have to agree with VB on this one. It is hard to see with the picture you posted but I'm thinking more along the lines of a reproduction. This is just a guess as I am not in person to view it. $138 seems kinda high for price too??