"Can streetcars save America's cities?" ~ cnn.com

[John in Covina]

Wiki has an neat article on the LA trolley system development and demise here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Electric_Railway

if you go there click on the picture of the map, it is really awesome. I saw an original of this map in the Train museum in Perris. I sigh with wistful desire everytime I see the extent of the system they had.

 

[Swing Motorman]

thoughts on a "streetcar culture"

Nice thread! Sure, buses are more flexible and easier to maintain; even the craziest trolley railfans I work with acknowledge that. But from both history and experience, I've found that the streetcar is a driving force behind a less wasteful lifestyle.

The culture of streetcar riders is one of living close to the places you go, caring about the place you live, and being humble and smart enough to use sustainable transportation. You look to make cities nice and livable places, and allow people to live their lives without depending on an automobile. There are trains and planes to go between cities, and nice sidewalks and streetcars to move you around within a city. In a sense, people free from the costs of a car have a better life than those tied to personal road transport.

The more common alternative is to live in the suburbs and drive everywhere. But, high gas prices, urban sprawl, and a loss of connectedness all threaten to end the short, perhaps-misguided experiment in widespread suburban life. More and more young people are unwilling to keep driving, spending gas, burdening governments with maintaining roads, and creating dangerous traffic congestion. And our artificially lowered American gas prices cannot last forever.

Am I suggesting you should let transportation availability determine your lifestyle for you? It's your choice. But I don't believe I'm entitled to wantonly use up fuel I can't replace, and produce waste I can't remove. I will do all I can to build my life around public transportation. And I think I'll be better off for choosing this path.

Just one trolley operator's 2-cent fare on the streetcar's role today.:usa2:

 

[Lincsong]

I rode The Bus around Oahu when in college. A pain in the butt. Now, when I go back on vacation and rent a car I realize how close everything is. Public Transportation is a money pit and full of corruption.

 

[martinsantos]

Agree with Lincsong. The idea of efficient and confortable public transportation is something very vague, without a positive acting. This became the transportation for "poor people", for who can't afford a car. The automobile as sign of status. For many years the mayors are just helping the car transporting, not public transporting. (interesting that in this behavior we had some streetcar lines disabled. Lines not only very efficient, but historical too! But as these lines were "lowering the cars' speed" they took them off).

I'm one of those Swingmotorman wrote about. Young (33 y.o.) and after being tired of traffic, etc, decided stop driving; when I tell this, usually people looks at me as somewhat crazy. (and usually they don't believe that I'm saving a good money using a lot taxi services). And simply don't see any advantage in driving a car for 1 hour with traffic, just to be alone in the car, when I can do the same travel in 20/30 minutes by subway.

Here the biggest argument against streetcars is that these are slow; I think it's a wrong argument. The medium speed of a bus is around 12 km/h (on weekends, no traffic) and very slower at rush hours. I believe that a streetcar would make a better mark than this.

 

[Lincsong]

Most bus companies and such were privately run in the USA, then in the 1950's and 1960's corrupt politicians "nationalized" the companies. They've since become money pits of corruption. Over here in the San Francisco Bay Area all the public transits are a joke. Drivers milking the overtime and getting paid $120,000 plus a year, projects running over budget and over time. Taxes are constantly being raised in order to fund this mess.

 

[Swing Motorman]

It's true that public transit agencies can be an awful mess much of the time. Just remember that overcrowded roads and only one viable transportation option (cars) make for dreadful messes also! If I have to "pick my poison" when it comes to transportation, I'll pick the poison with a dose of progress in it: the public option.

 

[Lincsong]

I'd rather let people make their own choices rather than have buses and trolley's that run from "no place" to "no where" as dictated by someone who drives a car wherever he wants and has no stake in the operations of the transit. Trolley's and such were good when people had limited shopping, housing and employment options. But they are as outdated in 2011 as horse whips and manual labor street sweepers.

 

[Red Diabla]

I'd rather let people make their own choices rather than have buses and trolley's that run from "no place" to "no where" as dictated by someone who drives a car wherever he wants and has no stake in the operations of the transit. Trolley's and such were good when people had limited shopping, housing and employment options. But they are as outdated in 2011 as horse whips and manual labor street sweepers.

Of course the current system is corrupt; no one is held accountable to their political dealings with stuff like this instead of creating a network that actually works. That doesn't make the idea of public transportation "outdated", it makes it a bigger challenge to fix is all. If people were more concerned about how to actually decrease traffic on the streets instead of how many times Lindsay Lohan goes to jail, we'd be further along in coming up with a solution.

Americans are also spoiled rotten. We have comparably cheap gas, huge SUV's that we don't need, and we buy into the idea that having a car is being "free", even if we end up sitting in traffic wasting time, money and the environment instead of actually getting to our destinations within a reasonable amount of time. Whenever I have to drive from the beach to downtown LA, it takes me 45 minutes to go 14 miles. THAT'S RIDICULOUS.

I'm always so jealous of cities like NYC, London and Amsterdam where they've made public transportation workable. Hell, even San Francisco is a step up over Los Angeles with BART. But the reason these cities have something going on at all is because a group of people made the decision and stuck to their guns about coming up with a system that's workable. Los Angeles still has too many NIMBYs on the constituent end and big business will derail (ha!) anything that will add to the rotting infrastructure and growing traffic gridlock here. I'd take a train in a second to get to LAX or downtown if I had the option open to me. Alas, it's not.

RD

 

[bil_maxx]

Completely agree RD. Here in Toronto, Canada, the transit system is garbage. We have 2 subway lines that run in a cross, but they do not cover very much ground. The bus and streetcar situation is laughable. A 20 minute car trip takes over 90 minutes by bus or streetcar. The recent Mayor David Miller government continued his "War on the Car", but did not offer a viable alternative. Who in their right mind would want to drive in traffic every day into a city of 5 million people? Frustrated commuters who have no alternative. This idiotic government reduced car lanes into the city, but did not offer decent transit. They even wanted to increase the number of streetcar right-of-ways, which allow the streetcars to travel unimpeded but block several car lanes and do not allow traffic to move freely. Even the objections of Police, Fire and Ambulance authorities were ignored. Luckily a new mayor has come in and has promised more subway tunnels and less streetcar chaos. Streetcars are beautiful to look at and carry many people, but they clog up traffic and cause major traffic jams. Good for New York and Washington, D.C. for having had the foresight to have dug their subway tunnels decades ago as the cost of this work is only increasing daily. It is a pleasure to get around in NYC as the subway coverage is so comprehensive.

 

[St.Ignatz]

Most bus companies and such were privately run in the USA, then in the 1950's and 1960's corrupt politicians "nationalized" the companies. They've since become money pits of corruption. Over here in the San Francisco Bay Area all the public transits are a joke. Drivers milking the overtime and getting paid $120,000 plus a year, projects running over budget and over time. Taxes are constantly being raised in order to fund this mess.

You are a bit shaky on facts my friend. The competing private systems were taken over by an oil/rubber/auto maker trust that purposely bankrupted the systems in order to sell more gas/tires/buses. That coupled with cheap gas, road building boom, suburban sprawl and higher incomes due to a booming economy was the death knell for private transit systems. Over simplified I agree but the case against NCL (National City Lines) just decided a few years ago agrees.
Tom D.

 

[Lady Day]

As someone who rides public transit because I don't have a car, Ive lived in San Francisco and Im in LA now. As some have said there is a mental stigma associated with public transit.

In SF, it was a means to get around by all types of people. Here in LA it is indeed looked on as the transportation of the poor.

As RD said, people are spoiled. WALKING! Two blocks to a bus stop is insane for them (even if they could use the exercise). Its the idea of planning a bit ahead. Cant do that! That cuts into my 'freedom' and even though I will sit in the traffic of a highway for 45 min to get to a junction to travel another 50 min to get to where Im going, thats my 'choice'.

Whatever.

But then again, you cant change anything without making something else change. Buses here in LA still have to share the lanes with regular cars, so there is no incentive to take the bus. Now, what if in rush hour, buses were given their own lane at specific places in the city, that would be a start, wouldn't it? Open more car ports for people to part and take the bus, like along the Caltrain lines in the Bay Area.

When people actually factor that they can actually DO stuff on the public transit (read, think, work, text, chat with someone) as opposed to driving where that time is lost getting to where you are going.

Also, people don't plan. "I can be anywhere I want to be at any time I want to be," bs is what keeps people arrogantly in cars. How about planning a bit? Stopping at the grocery near your work before you hop on the train home, or taking your dry cleaning to the place near your work, etc. But that gets into city planning a lot, and I wont get into that.

Sure its not a complete fix. There are times when I need a ride someplace, but I always have a plan B. I don't suffer because I don't have a car, I simply have to plan my outings a bit more.

As far as the streetcars, in SF there is sort of a hybrid. A lot of the busses have the electric cables that collect to the streetcar lines that are wired all over the city. The busses also have the mobility to flex into a left right an d center lane from the cables. I find that a great middle ground.

LD

 

[Swing Motorman]

Thanks for setting the record right on NCL, St.Ignatz. And Lady Day, I loved your comments. It's exactly what I think; in fact, exactly what I thought when I made the half-mile walk to a coffee shop tonight, deciding to leave my car parked instead. I was glad I did!

And yep, those trolley buses (that's their most common name,) are pretty swell too. Philadelphia's still got a handfull of 'em in service. Keep the faith of appreciating public transit, or for shorter distances, a good walk!

 

[sheeplady]

In my city, public transportation is also seen as only used by the lower class. I don't know a single staff or faculty member at my university that uses the bus system. As many say, it is only used by those who can't afford a car. (I own a car, but use the bus to commute to save on parking). It doesn't help that the system is somewhat unreliable (buses "fail to leave the garage" or leave timed spots early) and somewhat iffy (I have witnessed physical fits and verbal fits regularly). If you mind your own business and don't engage anyone who is looking for trouble, it is pretty good. The main switchpoint has had a few incidents, so I only take direct lines where I don't have to switch buses at night, because often you'll be standing out there up to an hour if your next bus leaves before it should. In the winter here, it can be quite cold, and in the summer could be unsafe.

Public transportation is met with some real resistance here. I don't wonder why, any public transport it immediately associated with some the bad behaviors associated with the bus system. Where I grew up (very rural) there were daily trains that came up from the nearest city, and a weekly bus route in the 1960s. Once more people got cars, it died a slow death.

 

[St.Ignatz]

And yep, those trolley buses (that's their most common name,) are pretty swell too. Philadelphia's still got a handfull of 'em in service. Keep the faith of appreciating public transit, or for shorter distances, a good walk!

In Philadelphia we call them trackless trolleys. The new generation has a hybrid system that allows them to drop the poles and detour around incidents like fire scenes and such. We were lucky enough to inherit a pretty decent system from several private corporations like the PRR, Reading Co. and PSTCo. (the Red Arrow). The city center is locked between two rivers so the commuter rail is essential. Our biggest problem is parking out outlying points. My Jeep is 16 years old with 74k on the odometer. Now if we could just make our transit equipment here instead of importing it.
Tom D.

 

[John in Covina]

In my city, public transportation is also seen as only used by the lower class. I don't know a single staff or faculty member at my university that uses the bus system. As many say, it is only used by those who can't afford a car. (I own a car, but use the bus to commute to save on parking).

I am willing to bet that those faculty members are very pro public transportation as long as it is "for other people."

 

[Feraud]

It is true certain areas in cities have deep rooted prejudices toward public transportation. This is no doubt fueled by the myth of independence sold to us by the car boys. I've observed these prejudices in my own neighborhood where there is ample public transporation that is overwhelming safe and runs on schedule. There is so little reason to own a car in our area.

Considering recent reports stating oil output may have reached, or soon will reach it's maximum output, I'd say it makes good all around sense for cities to invest in public transportation.

Americans seem to fetishize the idea of owning cars and homes.

 

[Doctor Strange]

There are still visible remnants of the old streetcar tracks and stations in many parts of NYC:

http://www.forgotten-ny.com/TROLLEYS/Trolley homepage/trolley2.html

I recall as a kid clearly seeing the old tracks in the Bronx. They ran north on Broadway from the end of the #1 subway at 242nd Street, on up to Yonkers. The trolleys were gone for at least 15 or 20 years, but the tracks hadn't yet been fully paved over.

 

[dnjan]

I've watched a few documentaries on the end of streetcars here in the US and I don't believe the clock can be set back on this matter. The only way I can see anything at all like a return to streetcars would be in isolated downtown areas and even then only if all automobile and truck traffic was banned completely from those areas.

Agree. A few years ago, Seattle decided to put in a new street car line. The South Lake Union Streetcar. Most people refer to it by the acronym, and there has probably been more money exchanged by people buying "I rode the ____ " T-shirts than actually paid fares.
A major problem with real streetcars (vehicles running on rails imbedded in regular streets) is that congestion in the street stops the streetcar as well.
In Seattle's case, part of the line runs on a very busy street. I have sat in traffic, inching one or two car lengths forward per traffic light cycle, looking in my rearview mirror at the streetcar that wasn't moving either.
Streetcars cannot be re-routed - the tracks are where they are. And what happens when the inevitable underground utility repair is needed? Close down the line for a month?
Also, that groove next to the steel rail does a nice job of catching bicycle tires.

Busses make much more sense for on-street vehicles. Seattle has a number of dual-fuel busses that can run on the overhead electric trolley line, but then switch to propane when re-routes are necessary. Plus these bus routes can be changed/extended as necessary.

 

[brspiritus]

Here in Jacksonville it's beyond "transportation for poor people". If you don't own a car you're an absolute nobody. The least headway on any bus here 30 mins and most are in the range of 45-90 mins. It's insane! Well what do you expect when the same beauracracy that runs the highways also runs the buses? Conflict of intrest what?

 

[bil_maxx]

Here in Toronto, the entire system was electrified for buses and streetcars. Then in the 1980s, General Motors removed all the lines as a "Favour" for the city so that it would not incur the cost. Can anyone guess who the number one bus supplier to the Toronto Transit Commission is? Of-course it's GMC. Now that the idiots who run the TTC want to electrify the system again, they talk about BILLIONS of dollars to do work that was already in place and operational. Incredible.