can an American enlist in the British army?

[green papaya]

if an American moved to England would they allow him to join the British military?

people from England join the US military all the time when they immigrate to the USA

 

[Smithy]

if an American moved to England would they allow him to join the British military?

people from England join the US military all the time when they immigrate to the USA

Not until they hold citizenship I believe.

It's different for people from Commonwealth countries where only a term of residency is required (mate of mine from NZ joined the British Army) and obviously Commonwealth defence personnel can transfer to the British Armed Services with minimal hassle dependent on their trade.

 

[zetwal]

http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/howdoijoin/canijoin/Pages/EntryRequirements.aspx

 

[Two Types]

Just stumbled across this thread:

I once interviewed an American born man of british parents who was living in the UK during WW2. He attempted to join the US Army in 1943 but was rejected on fitness grounds. As a result, he volunteered for the British Army and was accepted (in 1943 the British Army wasn't too fussy about health). After he was demobbed he travelled to the US Embassy to arrange the necessary paperwork to return to the US (passport etc). On the form he was asked to declare whether he had ever served in a foreign army. So he answered that he had served in the British Army and was therefore refused an American passport. He got rather annoyed and decided that from then on he was British and never returned to the USA.

 

[Stearmen]

I knew at least one American that flew for the British during WWII. He did the same thing that the French Foreign Legion does, he swore allegiants to the RAF, not Great Britain. Of course, the 8th Air Force welcomed him into their ranks with open arms. Who knows how that would work today?

 

[the hairy bloke]

There's a memorial to US citizens in who served in the royal Navy, during World War Two, in the Painted Hall at Greenwich.

 

[MisterCairo]

http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/howdoijoin/canijoin/Pages/EntryRequirements.aspx

So, to actually answer the OP, no, an American could not simply move to the UK and join, they would need citizenship first.

 

[Treetopflyer]

It this purely an academic question or is this something that you or someone you know is thinking about?

 

[Rick Blaine]

Try the Légion étrangère (French Foreign Legion).
"Whatever your origins, nationality or religion might be, whatever qualifications you may or may not have, whatever your social or professional status might be, whether you are married or single, the French Foreign Legion offers you a chance to start a new life..."
Once was you needn't give a real name nor Nationality.
And after your hitch, you may become a French citizen.

 

[Rathdown]

RE: serving in HM Armed Forces. My son, a citizen of the United States, had no insurmountable difficulty in joining the RAF Training Squadron while at university in the UK. His intention had been to make a career of the RAF, however a serious car accident prevented him from following through on that plan.

 

[Foxer55]

I believe its quite possible to join up in UK forces or anyone else's forces for that matter. The only problem is, upon doing so you automatically relinquish your U.S. citizenship as one poster described here. Swearing an oath to a cause other than the U.S Constitution is probably the basis. Remember,

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;..."

 

[Story]

Many nations get around this problem now by hiring Private Military Companies (what you'd know as 'mercenaries'). Don't matter where them boys come from, they're just warm-body trigger pullers.

The Ugandan mercs on our outer perimeter in Iraq had more combat experience (Pan-African War 1998-2001 or so) than the vast majority of troops in my BN.

 

[MisterCairo]

I believe its quite possible to join up in UK forces or anyone else's forces for that matter. The only problem is, upon doing so you automatically relinquish your U.S. citizenship as one poster described here. Swearing an oath to a cause other than the U.S Constitution is probably the basis. Remember,

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;..."

Joining the UK armed forces is based on UK law and regulation, not the consequences of American citizenship rules. See the weblink to the UK army above for UK enrolment rules.

http://www.army.mod.uk/join/

Also, there is no automatic relinquishment of American citizenship because one claims another nation's citizenship or allegiance, notwithstanding the pledge on taking citizenship:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law

Not my opinion, rather, that of the US Supreme Court.

 

[Foxer55]

MisterCairo,

Joining the UK armed forces is based on UK law and regulation, not the consequences of American citizenship rules. See the weblink to the UK army above for UK enrolment rules.

I don't believe I contradicted this.

Also, there is no automatic relinquishment of American citizenship because one claims another nation's citizenship or allegiance, notwithstanding the pledge on taking citizenship:

Upon entering military service in 1962 we were all advised that serving in the armed forces of another country was automatic relinquishment of citizenship. The reference you offer does not disagree with that except that if someone is forced into foreign service, any effort to remove their U.S. citizenship must be proven. By my reading of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nishikawa_v._Dulles

it seems that any voluntary foreign service is automatic loss of citizenship as I had been informed. I don't recall so long ago if we were taught the distinction. The OP discussed voluntary service in UK forces and the outcome as it happened passes the test.

Not my opinion, rather, that of the US Supreme Court.

Not disagreeing but I certainly wouldn't voluntarily join a foreign military if I wanted to keep my citizenship.

 

[MisterCairo]

Foxer: From wiki link above. If it is your INTENT TO RENOUNCE citizenship, you may lose it. You do not have a risk of automatic loss of citizenship, regardless of what you may have been told:

Dual citizenshipBased on the U.S. Department of State regulation on dual citizenship (7 FAM 1162), the Supreme Court of the United States has stated that dual citizenship is a "status long recognized in the law" and that "a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to the responsibilities of both. The mere fact he asserts the rights of one citizenship does not without more mean that he renounces the other," (Kawakita v. U.S., 343 U.S. 717) (1952). In Schneider v. Rusk 377 U.S. 163 (1964), the US Supreme Court ruled that a naturalized U.S. citizen has the right to return to his native country and to resume his former citizenship, and also to remain a U.S. citizen even if he never returns to the United States.
The Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) neither defines dual citizenship nor takes a position for it or against it. There has been no prohibition against dual citizenship, but some provisions of the INA and earlier U.S. nationality laws were designed to reduce situations in which dual citizenship exists. Although naturalizing citizens are required to undertake an oath renouncing previous allegiances, the oath has never been enforced to require the actual termination of original citizenship.[SUP][25][/SUP]
Although the U.S. Government does not endorse dual citizenship as a matter of policy, it recognizes the existence of dual citizenship and completely tolerates the maintenance of multiple citizenship by U.S. citizens. In the past, claims of other countries on dual-national U.S. citizens sometimes placed them in situations where their obligations to one country were in conflict with the laws of the other. The 2012 case of US-Thai dual national Joe Gordon is a case in point, who entered Thailand using a US passport but was convicted and imprisoned in May 2011 for Lèse majesté in Thailand.[SUP][26][/SUP] However, as fewer countries require military service and most base other obligations, such as the payment of taxes, on residence and not citizenship, these conflicts have become less frequent.[SUP][27][/SUP] As a result, there has been a dramatic increase in recent years in the number of people who maintain U.S. citizenship in other countries.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]
The U.S. citizen may lose his dual citizenship by obtaining naturalization in a foreign state, taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or political subdivision thereof, or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state if this action was performed with the intention of renouncing US citizenship.[SUP][28][/SUP]
One circumstance where dual citizenship may run counter to expectations of government agencies is in matters of security clearance. Any person granted a Yankee White vetting must be absolutely free of foreign influence, and for other security clearances one of the grounds that may result in a rejected application is an actual or potential conflict of national allegiances.

 

[Foxer55]

MisterCairo,

You raised the issue of this case which resulted in a Supreme Court majority opinion:

"Because the consequences of denationalization are so drastic petitioner's contention as to burden of proof of voluntariness should be sustained...

"The fact that this petitioner, after being conscripted, was ordered into active service in wartime on the side of a former enemy of this country must not be permitted to divert our attention from the necessity of maintaining a strict standard of proof in all expatriation cases. When the Government contends that the basic right of citizenship has been lost, it assumes an onerous burden of proof. Regardless of what conduct is alleged to result in expatriation, whenever the issue of voluntariness is put in issue, the Government must in each case prove voluntary conduct by clear, convincing and unequivocal evidenc."

Joining the military of a country requires taking an oath to that country or entity. That is a voluntary act unlike the act that caused the issue in the above opinion. Were I adjudicating the matter and informed you had voluntarily sworn alliegance to another cause, you would lose your U.S. citizenship by default. At the least. This is not about dual citizenship, its about intent, and if your intent is to take up arms under the color of someone elses causes, you lose.

Your recent example contained:

The U.S. citizen may lose his dual citizenship by obtaining naturalization in a foreign state, taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or political subdivision thereof, or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state if this action was performed with the intention of renouncing US citizenship.

I'm not sure how voluntarily taking an oath to another cause can be interpreted as is anything other than intentionally renouncing your citizenship. There are nowhere in the world ideals greater than those embodied in the Constitution or no more important purposes than to defend those ideals and you can't do that by becoming a sworn agent to something or someone else. I do know my peers will agree with me entirely and unequivocally about this. You are welcome to your opinion about it.

 

[Treetopflyer]

My big question is why would you want to? That is why I asked my original question, is this academic or is someone actually wanting to do this.

I had a friend that flew F/A-18s and he was going through training with a guy who was born and raised in Canada, but his Dad was American so he claimed American citizenship. The reason he joined the US Navy was because he wanted to land on aircraft carriers and Canada doesn't have any aircraft carriers.

I also met a guy n NYC that went to Israel and served in there military even though he was a US citizen. He moved back to the US, so I am not sure what his citizenship status was.

 

[Stearmen]

Why does every one go to Wikipedia and other useless links for matters of law, when you can go right to the U.S. Department of State for the definitive rules? http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_780.html

 

[Hunter_aka_Scotty]

Yeah I wish Green Papaya would let us know the reason for asking this! It's been an interesting discussion.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Yes I know, it's irritating, right? I am constantly having to remind my students of the unreliability of Wikipedia as a source. I can't count the number of times I've heard "but it says on Wikipedia …" and the source is wrong or misrepresenting the facts.

Your link is quite clear. And updated less than a month ago. end of discussion, methinks. There's one bit that's confusing though. While it states that typically one would have to engage in hostilities against the United States (does that include the modern idea of "United States Interests" so you couldn't for instance engage in hostilities against Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc.), it goes on to say, without qualification, that anyone who "serves in the armed forces of any foreign country as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer" will be subject to potential loss of citizenship. So, it's fine to be cannon fodder, but not an officer. Weird.

Why does every one go to Wikipedia and other useless links for matters of law, when you can go right to the U.S. Department of State for the definitive rules? http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_780.html