Camptown Metropolitan

[Kodiak]

I've already searched, so don't crucify me. Most of the other posts that I can find have dealt with the pre-production work on this hat. Very few of them have shown pics.

Since I'm still looking for the perfect gray hat, I'd like to know what the verdict is from those that actually own one of these.

(pics would be helpful too)

If I do decide to order, I'd probably just keep it styled like the one shown here:

http://www.camptownhats.com/photo_prod.asp?imgVar=1945_1.jpg

I'd like to see a few different angles though... [huh]

Anyway, let me know what you think. Thanks in advance

 

[YARVTON]

Camptown "Metropolitan"

Many, many comments to be found at Club Obi-Wan.

 

[Kodiak]

Yay, a reply!

Thanks, I'll have a slide on over there and sort through the Indy IV hoopla

 

[Woodfluter]

I've already searched, so don't crucify me. Most of the other posts that I can find have dealt with the pre-production work on this hat. Very few of them have shown pics.

Since I'm still looking for the perfect gray hat, I'd like to know what the verdict is from those that actually own one of these.

(pics would be helpful too)

If I do decide to order, I'd probably just keep it styled like the one shown here:

http://www.camptownhats.com/photo_prod.asp?imgVar=1945_1.jpg

I'd like to see a few different angles though... [huh]

Anyway, let me know what you think. Thanks in advance

Danged nice looking hat, Kodiak! Keep us posted about your findings.

From what I've seen, crucifixions aren't done here - if ya want one, ya gotta do it yerself. One of the reasons I like this place.

Now, as a group I think we all respect and admire the work of the custom hatters that frequent the lounge. Even those of us that haven't seen their productions first hand can appreciate the dedication and workmanship evident in the photos posted in various threads.

That said, as I understand it, they work with the hat bodies that they can procure, not the hat bodies of yesteryear. So I've been wondering - how do these compare with vintage? Sorry to bring attention to the elephant in the room. Just want to understand what they are most like. I have a personal interest as I'm ideally a 59.5 cm extra LO. Someday I'm going to order a hat that I know will fit like a custom-made glove. Until then, I'd love to hear some views about qualities - not in terms of good or bad, my fave this past week being an Imperial (std.) Akubra I've modified. But rather, are there bodies out there now that compare with Royal Deluxe Stetson, or 100% beaver of times gone by, or the best Borsas or whatever. These and others are all good for their purpose, but what sorts do Camptown and Art Fawcett and (egad) Optima compare with? Not having seen these in person.

Hope those makers don't mind my asking and maybe can post their views...

- Bill

 

[MAB1]

Looking at that pic makes me feel real good about my hat shaping ability.

And... it's nuthin special.

Shape your own hat as you would shape your own life.

Don't be scared.

 

[Art Fawcett]

Kodiak, I have not had a Camptown in my hands so I can't comment other than they are the normal factory made hat.


I CAN comment on your question Woodfluter, and, as I've said before, it is like comparing apples & oranges. Let me explain briefly. A felt body continues to "felt" itself over time even if only exposed to atmospheric changes and at some point in it's life ( time is debatable) it completes that process and "dies". I believe this to be true whether it's wool , rabbit, of pure beaver, so, how do you compare a fresh "live" felt to a "dead" felt. I don't believe the felt itself after the 1920's ( when mercury was banned) has changed significantly, so, if we could find that darned time capsule we could compare, but we can't. Since I have tested virtually every felt hood made today from every country that produces them, I believe we ( America) still make the best felt in the world and is why I choose to use it over every other product.

That said, what has changed more is not the felt itself, but the finishing techniques and trade secrets that made Vintage stand up so well to time. Oh, there are still craftsmen that know many of the methods, but not many still alive and willing to share them. One really has to seek out the old timers to get the info. Are todays hats comparable? I don't think so when talking your standard factory made, punched out in a press hat. Economic considerations in big business aren't the same as 60 yrs ago ( read that as retirement plans, wage addons as SS, litigations) so what's happened is shortcuts to stay viable in business. Add to that the consumer demand for cheap prices and you get an inferior hat. I really can't complain too much though as it's made the Bespoke hat viable for those looking for quality. If there were better factory made hats, my work wouldn't be different enough to distinguish myself.

 

[Rick Blaine]

Is mercury in current use by felters anywhere?

I mean many, many parts of the world have far less stringent pollution laws than here in N. America. (China, I'm looking at YOU!) Is there nowhere that mercury is still used?

 

[Art Fawcett]

Is there nowhere that mercury is still used?

Not to my knowledge Rick..and its a good thing..us hatters are strange enough without the extra help.lol lol

 

[WEEGEE]

GO BESPOKE

...Just got to say...owned a Camptown.

I think its the best money spent to go Bespoke and then you will never look back. I like vintage hats more for the intrinsic history value but for the most part Art's work is on my head and the greatest value known to hat kind!

 

[tonyb]

Never owned a Camptown, or even held one in my hands, so I can't speak to that. But I can second Weegee's observations regarding Art Fawcett's work. What probably isn't said often enough is what a real bargain Art's hats are. Go ahead -- shop around and see what most other custom hatters charge. If you want a distinctive, obviously high-quality, handsome hat that fits, it's hard to beat a Vintage Silhouettes.

 

[DanielJones]

I have two Camptowns & I couldn't be happier with them. Here are a few shots ofn my Metropolitan.

I did mine in a Raiders bash but since it is a hat that is easy to shape you could do a Winchester or c crown or even a telescope for a zoot hat.

Here is another thread on the Metropolitan.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?p=595517#post595517

Like I've said before I dig on my Camptown Hats. I'm even in line to get Ken's 1957 Legend. Ken will also be offering up straw versions of these hats in the near future, right now they are still in the R & D phase of theings, and with the birth of his second child he may be out of pocket for a couple of days.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=31216

Be sure to either PM, e-mail or call Ken. He will get back to you with answers to your questions. Hope this helps you out.

Cheers!

Dan

 

[retro50]

My very first fedora is a Camptown Fieldmaster, and I have to say that I am extremely happy with it. I have still been doing a lot of research on felt hats in general, and comparisons of modern to vintage, and feel that I have received excellent value for my dollar.

Although Camptown's hats are produced in a factory for Ken, the W. Alboum Hat Co., I think that the care that goes into making them is next to none, other than in the case of a one-off custom. I have taken the liberty to quote part of an article from The Fedora Chronicles written by Webhead73, one of the staff on that site. I found it enlightening in a positive way, and helped me in my decision to purchase. Nonetheless, one day I will still order a full one-off custom, and I will start to collect vintage hats. And, I will purchase another Camptown as well. Here is the quote:

"Just because Alboum’s is a business that makes hats using machines does not mean people are missing from the process. Stuart says “most people think you buy a roll of material and you stamp them (hats) out…not even close”. At Alboum’s, the hands of modern craftspeople are attending to the hats every step of the way. From arriving at the factory to customer delivery, these hats are cared for and worked on by professionals, skilled artisans who ensure the hats are perfect and exact to the customer’s order. Stuart added that in making a hat “there’s 154 operations from the first step until it’s finished…and at every step, something can go wrong”. That is why when he says “there’s no short cut to this” he means it. They take their time with each hat, making sure it meets their standards and the customer’s order all through the process. When they call a hat finished, you can be sure it is the best they can produce. Even after Alboum’s job is done, Ken takes his Camptown hat bodies and adds an additional set of steps to ensure his fedoras meet the expectations of his customers. From trimming the brim to shaping the crown (and everything in-between), Ken takes an already exceptional fedora and makes it even better.

Besides, the same machines making all of Alboum’s hats, including the Camptown line, are the same machines that made hats 80-100 years ago…it doesn’t get more retro than that."

 

[Woodfluter]

I CAN comment on your question Woodfluter, and, as I've said before, it is like comparing apples & oranges. //

A felt body continues to "felt" itself over time //
I don't believe the felt itself after the 1920's ( when mercury was banned) has changed significantly, //
I believe we ( America) still make the best felt in the world and is why I choose to use it over every other product.
That said, what has changed more is not the felt itself, but the finishing techniques and trade secrets//

Thank you Art. Your explanation of the progressive changes in felt after manufacture are very enlightening, and you mentioned those on another thread also.

But I might not have explained my question clearly enough. Yes, apples and oranges, yes no time machine. Yes, finishing processes now lost or nearly so.

But I really wasn't asking whether bespoke hats such as you make are as good as those of yesteryear, but rather which hats, either those of today or vintage, they most resemble. Let me try for more clarity.

I have in hand a Borsalino, made for the Italian market, wide tan sweatband, so perhaps 1950s'? For reference, not as quite as thick as an Akubra heritage quality felt but close, velvety finish - nothing like any I've seen in any modern hat. With very light steaming, easily shaped as you like. Afterward, press it very lightly and you can reshape it any way you want, but just shake it and it returns to the steamed form.

I have in hand a Stetson Sovereign, marked "vita-felt" with Cavanagh edge. This one is as every bit as thick and dense as an Akubra, but there all resemblence ends. It is not as velvety, but seems even finer-grained in its surface finish than the Borsalino. It is not quite as pliable, but vastly more so than the heritage-grade Akubra. It hold its shape perfectly but isn't a bit stiff. Almost ideal from some perspectives.

I have in hand a Royal Stetson, finish not as fine as those above, somewhat like that in Ken's hats as far as photos will reveal, thinner than the Sovereign but comparable in suppleness and shape-holding. Very light and comfortable and seems durable.

I have in hand a light-weight Mallory that seems like Red Skelton's hat - maybe you remember his opening monologues from very early TV where he reshaped his hat in an instant to adopt various personalities. This hat seems to talk to me and say "you want me to be a porkpie, I can be your porkpie! You want that Indiana Jones thing, no sweat, I can do that, or maybe you want the Philip Marlowe look? Just tell me." But it won't remember a thing about what it was before; it's a complete chameleon.

I have in hand a Setson Open Road, medium light in weight (thinner than the Akubra) but dense and with great memory for shape and resistant to the effects of wetting. Also kind of ideal in other ways.

I have in hand a recent Akubra Federation Deluxe which has acquired some softness through much hand working, but still has considerably more stiffness than any of the above. And seems tougher and more water resistant.

These and other data points unmentioned here are all fine hats. For different purposes and in different ways. If I didn't like them I'd sell them on eBay. I like them all.

So it's kind of like my asking "are X's custom-made guitars more like a Martin or a Gibson or a Santa Cruz or a Collins, or something else?" and getting back from satisfied customers "it's a really great guitar!" I don't doubt that. I'm trying to find out what kind of great guitar...er, hat these different makers are producing (today, not what they'll be like after I'm dead). It seems that a comparison, even if apple-orangish, with the wide-ranging properties of vintage and commercial modern hats might be a viable approach? Yes? No?

- Bill

 

[Art Fawcett]

Thanks Bill, that's a much more detailed question and I can address it first with a qualifier that I have to deal with on an almost daily basis.

Define good. Here's what I mean. Some guy's think a "good" hat ( or best if you will) is one that you can drop a log on and won't loose it's shape. Others think that if it requires no steam to recrease ( Kadiddlehopper) it's a good hat. Still others think it's somewhere in between so, it's kindof like trying to hit a moving target. I try hard to ask enough questions of my clients to get a feel for what THEY think is best.

Now, what I think define's best is your Borso from the 40's of 50's and has always been my personal target. I wore one daily for over ten years and three renovations. The Vitafelt rates right up there for "feel" or "hand", but doesn't always measure up ( to MY eye) in production value so the "hand" is the target, not the overall hat. Don't get me wrong, it's a great hat if you compare it to todays "standard", but not good enough to my eye to be called 'best".

SO, I can only speak for my hats with an obviously biased eye, but I DO think they compare favorably to the Borso and Vitafelt if not better. Most of those valued vintage hats do/did not use the best materials available as they were still production hats at the time. Their production methods and end result were and are better than what is considered acceptable in todays market, but we are still talking almost exclusively rabbit hats and that fur, IMO, never measures up to pure beaver. Beaver has always been the "gold standard" in hats. Everything else is marketing. ( yes, including nutria, a very coarse fur)

I mention that this is my target, but only my clients can really give you the realistic answer as to how close I come to it. Any more statements from me would only appear as self promotion which personally make me cringe and is firmly against Lounge policy. It's best to let my hats do the talking, agreed?

As for the rest of the hats you mention? In my eyes they are all inferior to today's best with only one caveat. They used better ribbon than we can get today based solely on the content of the rayon part of the ribbon. All hatband is rayon and cotton blend ( OK, some silk, but very rarely) but what is the rayon made of today vs "yesterday". Today it's synthetic, yesterday it was wood pulp. I can't tell you the chemical differences beyond that, but I CAN tell you that it makes a world of difference in the finished product's properties.

In my eye, the rest of the hats you mention are not anywhere near the top of the chain, but again, it's up to what each of us defines as "best". They just don't measure up to my definition.

 

[Woodfluter]

Thank you Art!

That was the kind of information I was looking for. A perfect explanation.

Just for absolute clarity, and so there's no lingering misunderstandings in any quarter...

- I wasn't asking about whose hats are better.
- I wasn't asking whether bespoke modern hats are as good as vintage mass-manufactured by Knox or Borsa or whoever.

- I was wondering what kind of good hats are made by modern hatters, with vintage types as convenient reference points. Art, you put this better than I did in terms of "target" qualities. And different makers might have different targets, one not better than the other but with different virtues in mind.

I would add that my definition of "good" may be broader than yours, maybe. Or maybe not. Anyway, if I plan to bash (in the old sense of the word?) through the woods or do things that risk damage or loss, I really am quite happy with an Akubra. They seem pretty tough and replaceable. And the other types mentioned also have valid uses. Believe me, if I got one from you, a beaver, I'd use it a lot but take very good care of it!

By the way, I don't think describing your goals and honestly assessing your success in meeting them amounts to self-promotion. My view.

Thanks again. Would be great to hear from or about some others in relation to types or "target qualities" - not absolute quality.

- Bill

P.S. Sorry! I really didn't plan a hijack on this thread! Talk some more about the Metropolitan - seems like a super lid.