Buffalo felt

[Lloyd]

I have a buffalo felt Stetson. I wore it as a trail hat for 3 years, it's been rained on and soaked through and through several times. For a foul weather hat it works fairly well. Not as good as a high end hare or beaver but still better than any wool hat I've ever seen. Thick felt, good in the rain.

 

[Brother cavefish]

I am pondering getting a new hat for camping, rain etc. I like the cut of stetson s. My decision is either a beaver or buffalo felt, looking for advice fellas

 

[barrowjh]

Beaver is usually the preferred felt for any situation. Nutria (not sure about buffalo) may be preferred when cost becomes a factor and you are comparing toughness of nutria vs rabbit, but I think nutria may be about as expensive as beaver, and most prefer the beaver. I am not very familiar with 'buffalo' felt, not sure how it compares regarding toughness. Beaver is tough and yet plush to the touch at the same time, so it is generally preferred.

 

[Joao Encarnado]

You will end better with beaver than buffalo.
It all depends on how much money you want to spend on a hat and were you buy it.

 

[T Jones]

There's a fellow Lounger, Joao Encarnado, who just recently bought a so-called Buffalo felt western hat. It turns out that the hat is actually made from 100% wool felt. I would find a nice vintage fur felt Western and have it converted to something you want. You'd be spending less money and you'd be getting a hat with rugged, durable felt which would be ideal for camping and hiking. Fellow Lounger, John Galt, converted a Resistol Stagecoach Western to an Indy fedora for me. The hat is really nice. Perfect for the outdoors.

 

[Joao Encarnado]

Beaver is usually the preferred felt for any situation. Nutria (not sure about buffalo) may be preferred when cost becomes a factor and you are comparing toughness of nutria vs rabbit, but I think nutria may be about as expensive as beaver, and most prefer the beaver. I am not very familiar with 'buffalo' felt, not sure how it compares regarding toughness. Beaver is tough and yet plush to the touch at the same time, so it is generally preferred.

Are Nutria hat bodies still made?
"buffalo fur" is almost like wool (it might be considered wool instead of fur). Looks tough but have almost the same feeling to the touch as wool.
New, a buffalo hat is cheaper than a beaver hat. On ebay you may find a cheap beaver blend than buffalo.

 

[TheDane]

Are Nutria hat bodies still made?

Absolutely! The question is: Are hats really made from buffalo felt - or is it just one of those marketing gimmicks? Felting-wise I would guess, that the chipmunk under your house, your German Shepherd or Golden Retriever will provide just as good (or probably rather: bad) a fur. Back in the day, buffalo was never mentioned as a fine material fur felt hats ... not to my knowledge, that is. But "Buffalo" has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

A quality body, made from rabbit/hare blend costs almost the same as a 100% beaver, so the beaver shouldn't be that much more expensive in retail - but it sure is! This may be due to parameters, that never crossed my mind, but it could also be because of the word "Beaver" has a nicer ring to it, though. Hard to say ... [huh]

 

[Joao Encarnado]

Absolutely!

Didn't know. How is the quality of those modern Nutria felts? Same as old Stetsons?

The question is: Are hats really made from buffalo felt - or is it just one of those marketing gimmicks? Felting-wise I would guess, that the chipmunk under your house, your German Shepherd or Golden Retriever will provide just as good (or probably rather: bad) a fur. Back in the day, buffalo was never mentioned as a fine material fur felt hats ... not to my knowledge, that is. But "Buffalo" has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

That is what intrigued me when I received by 4x buffalo Stetson and checked the tag saying 100% imported wools. I wrote to Stetson and the only thing they replied about it is that they make the same model in different felts to reach all purses, from the cheap to the expensive hat. A "Buffalo" hat has a nice ring to it probably due to the connection on western and Buffalo Bill.

A quality body, made from rabbit/hare blend costs almost the same as a 100% beaver, so the beaver shouldn't be that much more expensive in retail - but it sure is! This may be due to parameters, that never crossed my mind, but it could also be because of the word "Beaver" has a nicer ring to it, though. Hard to say ... [huh]

The cost of making a body might the same and what makes beaver so expensive is probably the "plush" finish it gets that it's not possible to get on a bunny/hare hat body?

 

[mayserwegener]

The cost of making a body might the same and what makes beaver so expensive is probably the "plush" finish it gets that it's not possible to get on a bunny/hare hat body?

Hare is the best for long hair / glossy finishes. Beaver felts much better so it will produce a more dense felt. This is great for a smooth finish. Today felting standards have declined (aging, stains, processing time) so this definitely has had an impact (a fur that felts better has more of an edge). I seem recall Robert (RLK) saying that Optimo switched from Beaver blends to pure Beaver felts because people were demanding them, not because they produced better results. Most pre WII high end felts were some type of blend. The highest quality Velours (prior to WWII) used small amounts of raw and stained Nutria or Muskrat or Beaver to aid in felting. Mercury was used as the stain along with other banned additives such as Arsenic that allowed Hare to felt better (once it felted it produced a very durable felt). The main fur for highest quality Velours was Saxon Hare which produced the finest results.

 

[TheDane]

The cost of making a body might the same and what makes beaver so expensive is probably the "plush" finish it gets that it's not possible to get on a bunny/hare hat body?

On the contrary. Hare and rabbit are blended with beaver to give the beaver a better hand. Beaver makes the felt more "tough" and dense - but other furs are used to give it a nicer hand/touch.

 

[Joao Encarnado]

Cool info! Thanks!!

 

[mayserwegener]

A quality body, made from rabbit/hare blend costs almost the same as a 100% beaver, so the beaver shouldn't be that much more expensive in retail - but it sure is! This may be due to parameters, that never crossed my mind, but it could also be because of the word "Beaver" has a nicer ring to it, though. Hard to say ... [huh]

What is the price difference? Are Beaver - Hare or Hare - Beaver blends available? I took a quick look at FEPSA's website and I didn't see any fur content mentioned. I seem to recall that being available online. They list the quality but not fur content. For example what is LLX? I assume the Xs are Beaver based felts.

http://www.fepsa.pt/en/technical-info/finishes

 

[mayserwegener]

On the contrary. Hare and rabbit are blended with beaver to give the beaver a better hand. Beaver makes the felt more "tough" and dense - but other furs are used to give it a nicer hand/touch.

My question: Are current day stains able to produce the same quality Hare felts as Mercury stains? From what I have read (from 19th Century) Mercury was essential to felt Hare. They were attempts to replace it (due to health reasons) but nothing was found that could match it.

 

[TheDane]

You can't really see prices (or anything else for that matter) on FEPSA's website anymore. As "guest", you can only see their "stock" bodies - a very small side-area, addressing hobby-hatters.

They used to have an ordering area, but now you have to be a registered customer to see that. Anyway, the price of their finest (standard) rabbit(/hare?) blend is $10-15 cheaper than their (standard) 100% beaver - depending on the color, and if the fur has to be bleached before dying.

I write "standard", because you can always get them to make special blends, if you buy enough volume and are willing to pay the price - and they even have "standard special blends", if you ask

 

[TheDane]

My question: Are current day stains able to produce the same quality Hare felts as Mercury stains? From what I have read (from 19th Century) Mercury was essential to felt Hare. They were attempts to replace it (due to health reasons) but nothing was found that could match it.

I'm not sure. Felters are not happy to talk about specifics, and I don't have a felting plant, so I can't experiment

The use of Mercury in the carrotting process was completely banned, and to my knowledge it's never been really successfully replaced by other chemistry/processes. Hare is still used in blends, but I'm not sure to what extend (precise procent of the total amount of fur in a body). Again, felters are not happy to talk about specifics ...

 

[mayserwegener]

Interesting. Do you know the fur content of LLX? Also why do they make a difference between Velour and Melusine? I do not see this distinction made in the past. Are these wet brushed felts (this would have been considered Real (Echter) Velour)?

 

[mayserwegener]

I'm not sure. Felters are not happy to talk about specifics, and I don't have a felting plant, so I can't experiment

The use of Mercury in the carrotting process was completely banned, and to my knowledge it's never been really successfully replaced by other chemistry/processes. Hare is still used in blends, but I'm not sure to what extend (precise procent of the total amount of fur in a body). Again, felters are not happy to talk about specifics ...

Yes I faced this at TONAK. I believe I asked about stains but I didn't get an answer. They wouldn't show me their dying department.

 

[TheDane]

I'm not sure, but I believe it's a hare/rabbit blend. It seems to contain a lot of pretty long haired and very soft fur. Their use of "velour" translates for me into "short velvet". Their "melusine" is a longer version, that more resembles fur, but far from as fine as the old Central European velours (Seal, etc).

I was told, their "velour" is dry brushed. I don't know about their "melusine", but I would think, that is as well. No old coughing men bathing, petting, combing and nursing their "little furry babies" in steamy, un-healthy environments

 

[mayserwegener]

Yes Velour today is a dry process (shark skin and cut). Bahner makes a wet Velour brushing machine. I am not sure if these are used to make what they call Melusine.

http://www.hatmachines.com/katalog.asp?lg=gb&pagenr=6

Yes the old process was very labor intensive but can't argue about the results. That is why Velours had a high price point. Fur content wasn't the only factor regarding cost.

 

[Joao Encarnado]

LLX 140 is 100% hare.