Brad Pitt's WWII Tank movie, "FURY"

[Worf]

The fact that American, British, Canadian and Free French tankers had to fight German advisories in heavy tanks speaks to their bravery, but lets not fall for the prevailing myths perpetuated by "panzerphiles." The German army was not a mechanized juggernaut mounted in armored behemoths. 75% of German forces on the Eastern Front relied on horses or shoe leather for transport. As late as 1944, only slightly less than half of German units deployed to Western Europe were motorized, mechanized, or armored formations.

Was the Tiger I a good tank? Sure, it was great! But the Germans built less that 1,400 of them over its two-year production run! The Tiger II? Less than 500 were ever built. The Panther? About 6,000 were built, but they were so mechanically unreliable that Panther formations were routinely under strength due to breakdowns. As a comparison, the combined production for run M4 Sherman variants produced from 1942 until the end of the war was just under 50,000 units! In the Sherman, you had exactly what it was designed to be: a rugged, reliable, nimble, infantry support tank.

Same could be said of the T-34. But I think its fair to say that their kill to loss ratio was outstanding, plus in either a defensive or offensive roll they were handled superbly. I agree with you it took incredible courage to take on the Wermacht in ANY of the allied tanks right up until the end of the war. All I'm saying is that if they'd put as much ingenuity and forethought into the tanks as they did the fighters or the bombers the losses might not have been so severe. Too me it seems the Nazis were ALWAYS trying to make a better more effective tank while the allies seemed to put their talents elsewhere... but in the end it mattered little. As on Panzer commander ruefully said after the war.

"Our tanks were 10 times better than yours... problem is you always had 11."

Worf

 

[Monsoon]

Going back to the whole "age" thing reminds me of two things:

1. The movie "Summer School". 16 year old surfer dude is busted by a judge for underage drinking and he wants to see the ID he used. Judge says, "You were a black Marine in 1968?"

Surfer dude: "War changes a man in many ways."

2. HH6 got me the "Invasion Journal: Normandy" for my birthday. Everyone has seen the pics of the 12th SS division troops by the chapel. Three or four guys, one with an MG42? They showed a close up of one and he looked about 26. They showed a pic of the same guy three weeks prior and he looked about 12.

 

[DavidJones]

Seen the trailer, and just might have to go this Fall and see "Fury".

 

[Guttersnipe]

Same could be said of the T-34. But I think its fair to say that their kill to loss ratio was outstanding, plus in either a defensive or offensive roll they were handled superbly. I agree with you it took incredible courage to take on the Wermacht in ANY of the allied tanks right up until the end of the war. All I'm saying is that if they'd put as much ingenuity and forethought into the tanks as they did the fighters or the bombers the losses might not have been so severe. Too me it seems the Nazis were ALWAYS trying to make a better more effective tank while the allies seemed to put their talents elsewhere... but in the end it mattered little. As on Panzer commander ruefully said after the war.

"Our tanks were 10 times better than yours... problem is you always had 11."

Worf

It wasn't a lack of ingenuity and forethought so much as the lead time required to ramp up production. At the outset of WWII, some very good tank designs (the M6 for example) existed on paper or as prototypes. The problem was, U.S. industry was literally incapable of building them in large numbers. Specifically, very few factories existed that could manufacture cast hulls and turrets, which is why the riveted-hull M3 Lee had been deployed as a stopgap. Early versions of the the M4 featured welded hulls and turrets, which provided inferior protection as compared to later up-armored variants with cast hulls and turrets. However, it took time to build factories capable of manufacturing large castings, or even to build tanks at all.

Armored warfare proponents within the U.S. Army, like Patton, lobbied very heavily for resources to be focused on developing and deploying the heavy tank design that ultimately resulted in the M-26 Pershing. However, because of the time required to fully develop and deploy experimental U.S. heavy tank designs like the M6 and T20 -- and then build factories capable of mass producing the darn things -- military planners decided to focus on the medium tank designs like the M4 program, which was much further along when the U.S. entered the war.

offtopic: Similarly, the Soviets improved the pre-war design of the T-34 by implementing casting techniques to manufacture the turret and upping the armor protection. These efforts resulted in the T-34/85, which mounted a high velocity 85mm main gun and had better armor protection. The T-34/85 was still very much a viable design when deployed by the North Koreans and Chinese against the M4 and M26 ten years latter. Also of note, Israeli "super Shermans" developed in the 1950s were still very potent when they saw action in the mid-1960s.)

 

[Smithy]

Yeah I agree. Brad Pitt's been in a good many really good movies. No matter what the tabloids would have us believe, he seems like a stand up guy, and his acting is usually more than adequate if the script and production values are good. I'll watch this one.

Couldn't agree more. The fellow is a damn good actor if he gets the right script, although he'll probably never top his performance in "Fight Club".

I saw the trailer for Fury yesterday and on the strength of it I'll be paying a few dollars to go and see this at the flicks. Looking forward to it.

 

[Smithy]

The fact that American, British, Canadian and Free French tankers had to fight German advisories in heavy tanks speaks to their bravery, but lets not fall for the prevailing myths perpetuated by "panzerphiles." The German army was not a mechanized juggernaut mounted in armored behemoths. 75% of German forces on the Eastern Front relied on horses or shoe leather for transport. As late as 1944, only slightly less than half of German units deployed to Western Europe were motorized, mechanized, or armored formations.

Was the Tiger I a good tank? Sure, it was great! But the Germans built less that 1,400 of them over its two-year production run! The Tiger II? Less than 500 were ever built. The Panther? About 6,000 were built, but they were so mechanically unreliable that Panther formations were routinely under strength due to breakdowns. As a comparison, the combined production for run M4 Sherman variants produced from 1942 until the end of the war was just under 50,000 units! In the Sherman, you had exactly what it was designed to be: a rugged, reliable, nimble, infantry support tank.

True enough... Allied tanks were close in Libya but most historians and veterans, particularly Brits manning Sherman's felt totally outmatched. Barkman's corner was no accident. From the mid-point to the end of the war, perhaps not Russian tankers but American and Brits were under armed and under-armored when facing their German counterparts. I didn't say this THEY did. As one British tankie lamented... "I've been blown out or shot out of every tank I ever rode in. From the Crusader to the Churchill... then NEVER gave us a proper tank."

My great uncle had nothing but respect for German armour but then it was his job to destroy it. He was 7th Anti-Tank, 2 NZ Division and fought German Panzers in North Africa and Italy, was wounded twice and won the DSO. I am supremely proud of him but have no idea how he faced them for the best part of 4 years and survived.

 

[Monsoon]

The fact that American, British, Canadian and Free French tankers had to fight German advisories in heavy tanks speaks to their bravery.....

That reminds me of the Poles in the beginning of the war. People joke how their cavalry charged tanks (actually, armored cars or recon vehicles), thinking they were stupid to do so.

Just the opposite. They knew what they were doing, yet did it anyway. Charging armored vehicles of any sort while on horseback took some serious balls, that's for sure.

 

[SHOWSOMECLASS]

The armored divisions also relied heavily on air support to compensate for what they lacked in firepower and armor. The Jabo's website stated that pilots of the 9th tactical command (9 AAF) frequently rode on the ground as controllers/spotters in tank groups. From the field he would call in the coordinates and direct air power to the target. Thus the hunter becomes the hunted.

The Following are from quotes from: The Story of The IX Tac

JABOS: "MOST TERRIFYING WEAPON"

THE red tile building at the intersection of two dusty roads near Putanges looked like an ordinary house in the hot August sunlight, but Maj. Randall W. Hendricks and the four Thunderbolts hovering above the tank column saw it as a death trap for Americans. The U.S. tank command on the ground couldn't know that two Tiger tanks had their muzzles trained at right angles to the road, all set to knock off the Shermans as they went by.
"Couple of tanks ahead of you," Maj. Hendricks radio-telephoned the tank commander. "How about us bombing them?"
"You're too close. You might knock us out, too," was the reply.
"Then swing your guns about 45 degrees left because those tanks are set to come out shooting."
Sherman guns swung around. A few moments later, the ugly snouts of the Tiger 88s nosed out from behind the building. The American tanks fired immediately, but were not in range. The Tigers, however, scurried back to shelter.
"Put some bombs on them," said the tank commander.
"Achtung, Jabos." There was no escape for the Tigers.
Maj. Hendricks' flight peeled off in a steep dive. Bombs dropped. Tanks were knocked out.
Meanwhile near Looges, German troops were holding up another tank column. The tank commander radioed to Thunderbolt Flight Leader Lt. Col. John D. Haesler of Loop City, Neb. Because the road ahead led through the trees, the tanker didn't think pilots could bomb without hitting his tanks.
For 25 minutes, pilot and tank CO discussed the situation. The pilot won out. Two flights of Thunderbolts swooped to within 250 yards of the tanks and strafed the German position.
"How's that?" the Colonel called to the Shermans.
"Great. With support like that we can go all the way to Berlin!"
The two tank columns didn't get to Berlin that day, but they made so much distance with the Thunderbolts that the Commanding General of the German Army phoned Field Marshal von Kluge to report "considerable tank losses and terrific fighter-bomber attacks."


http://www.skylighters.org/ixtac/index.html

 

[SHOWSOMECLASS]

American infantrymen on Nov. 18 found themselves pinned down by artillery fire a few miles southeast of Eschweiler. Thunderbolts strafed and bombed positions not more than 200 yards in front of the line. They were so close, the ground controller said he was able to describe the entire action in detail.
Near Stolberg, Capt. Robert M. Fry, Erie, Pa., led his Thunderbolts only 20 feet off the ground to attack German artillery firing at U.S. tanks.
"I could see the muzzle blast from the lead tank flatten the grass in front as the gun went off," the Captain said.

 

[SHOWSOMECLASS]

HEAVY fog lay on the ground, seeped into the valleys, and veiled the low, steep hills flanking the Ambleve River and the villages of Stavelot, La Gleize and Stoumont Dec. 18 as a column of 200 grey-green German tanks and armored moved up towards vital American oil stores and communications. It was noon, and U.S. infantry divisions covering the northern flank of the German counter-offensive, which had started the day before, were not certain they could contain this spearhead as it turned north.
The Germans had counted on fog to veil their movements, hoping that it would throttle their deadliest enemy—fighter-bombers.
In close contact with First Army Headquarters, Gen. Quesada knew that the Germans had driven through the Losheim Gap and were hurrying towards Stavelot. He phoned Col. George W. Pack of Detroit, commander of the tactical reconnaissance group, for volunteers to fly through the 10/10 fog and bring back much-needed information about the German movement.
On the field phone, Gen. Quesada briefed his two volunteers, Mustang pilots Capt. Richard Cassady of Nashville, Ark., and 2nd Lt. Abraham Jaffe of the Bronx, N.Y. He told them where to go, what to look for.
The two-man team flew in valleys, sometimes less than 100 feet off the ground in order to see below and still miss the hills. Near Stavelot, they spotted 60 Nazi tanks and armored vehicles moving through the mist.
"We made three runs over that column, and the Germans were so surprised to see us they didn't fire until the last run," said Capt. Cassady, who wears the DFC, the Purple Heart and the Air Medal with 13 clusters. "We could see their faces as they threw everything they had at us, from rifles to 20mm stuff."
The two pilots radioed their findings to Col. Meyers, 27-year-old combat operations chief. Col. Meyers already had organized a fighter-bomber mission using the "Hell Hawks" of Col. Ray J. Stecker's Thunderbolt group. The "Panzer Dusters," led by Lt. Col. Frank S. Perego of Canandaigua, N.Y., likewise were alerted.
Four-plane flights took off for the target area, each carrying two 500-pound bombs. Twisting through the fog between 450-foot hills over winding backgrounds, the first flight caught more than 60 tanks and 200 trucks. They bombed 30 tanks, strafed 20 trucks. Three planes were hit by flak. One didn't come back.
Col. Meyers continued to send four-plane flights shuttling over the area until 1700 hours that afternoon, seven missions in all. At the end of the day, pilots reported 126 armored vehicles and trucks destroyed, 34 damaged. The crack Adolph Hitler Division had been stopped short of its objective. A lightly armed airborne division was assembled to finish the job. On Dec. 20, a U.S. armored division locked around the column, and the threat was ended.

 

[SHOWSOMECLASS]

St. Lo.

AFTER the initial breakthrough, doughfeet and tanks really began to roll. Fighter-bombers flew almost 10,000 sorties and dropped more than 2000 tons of bombs between July 25 and July 31. The mission also included direct support. Flights of four would fly half-hour shifts over the head of a tank column, and lead it down the road.
The support worked in two ways. Tank commanders either asked the planes to scout the road ahead to see if there was any opposition, or they called on planes for help when opposition was encountered.
When a single Sherman was surrounded by 13 Panzers, a flight of fighter-bombers dispersed the Panzers and saved the M-4. When a fighter-bomber swooped down on the enemy half-tracks near Canisy, Krauts jumped out and began waving a white flag. The pilot radioed Army to pick up prisoners.
"Achtung, Jabos!" was already a standard alert for the Germans. Telephone conversations between members of the Nazi High Command began blaming fighter-bomber attacks for inability to advance, or to stop the U.S. attacks.

 

[SHOWSOMECLASS]

Later after the initial breakthrough of St. Lo., fighter-bombers held a field day. First they bombed crossroads. Then they knocked out bridges. They smacked Panzer tanks, left them burning. When tanks took off cross-country, planes swooped down on them like vultures. On July 29, pilots hung up the scalps of 37 tanks, damaged 42 and knocked out more than 200 trucks.
Nazi Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel sent out a warning to his commanders about the effectiveness of what he called the "Anglo-Saxon air force." He didn't have to—they were well aware of it.
July 31 was another field day. Pilots in the air between Granville, Gravery and Avranches threw Sunday punches at the Wehrmacht. They added to their totals of ground targets, hit railroads and bridges behind German lines, knocked down 14 enemy planes and broke up a counter-attack in the middle of the U.S. lines.
They blocked the roads. They chased Nazi convoys unmercifully up and down the highways and left so many shattered, burning and crippled vehicles that fleeing Krauts had trouble weaving in and out of the wreckage. Trucks were parked bumper to bumper like a Saturday afternoon crowd leaving a football game at the Polo Grounds. Even attempts to hide behind the hedgerows proved futile. Pilots swept down to 35 feet from the ground, smacking everything they could see.
Meanwhile German high commanders screamed at each other over field telephones. One Nazi corps commander called frantically for Luftwaffe air cover.
"It should be there any minute," he was told. "According to Col. Blowius, planes have taken off."
"I've seen only one all day," the corps commander complained.
"That's one more than I have," snapped his superior.
To pilots who participated, the St. Lo operation represented an opportunity to show ground troops what fighter-bombers could do. To Germans it was a headache. Planes crippled them, snarled their supply network, smeared their plan of attack. Planes and tanks had become an unbeatable team.

 

[SHOWSOMECLASS]

This thread was about the movie and certainly it evolved. Why did this thread die? Question is:
Will the actors carry the sense of the tankers sacrifice, day to day grind, and common emotion?

 

[Sharpsburg]

Yah! Weren't we discussing some kind of movie, eh?

 

[SHOWSOMECLASS]

The thread changed to Tankers and their equipment.
Yet, after 1944 the addition of the "Ace" air fire power was the deciding factor in the whole "tanker" game.

 

[SHOWSOMECLASS]

Certainly in North Africa previously during Operation Torch it was much more of a strategic tank war.

 

[Fastuni]

Please in future use the edit function. No need for 8 posts in a row.
It's more reader-friendly. Thank you.

 

[Story]

Up!

(only Tankers will get the joke)

 

[Foxer55]

I am reminded of an interview on History Channel or Frontline with an American tank commander from the first Iraq war. His tank squadron was sent out across the desert at night to find an Iraqi tank group. The were hauling ass across the darkened desert in their M1 Abrams tanks looking for the Iraqis, watching ahead with nightvision devices, over sand dune after sand dune. He said they were screaming across the desert at full throttle and crested a dune and there they were, a bunch of Iraqi tanks. He said he didn't even get the word to "Fire!" out of his mouth when all the M1 Abrams opened up full blast on the Iraqis, boom, boom, boom boom! Contact and direct fire were instantaneous. He said within seconds the Iraqi group was reduced to rubble without ever knowing what hit them. Cool!

 

[Guttersnipe]

I saw Fury yesterday and it is definitely a movie you want to see on the big screen, because it looks amazing.

It does suffer from many of the Hollywoodisms inherent in most 21st century big studio productions. However, if you're interested in mechanized warfare, there is a scene in which makes the whole film worth the price of admission; a platoon of M4s -- led by Staff Sergeant Don "Wardaddy" Collier's M4E8 -- takes on a single Tiger I. The tactics shown in this scene are the textbook procedure used by American tankers to engage numerically inferior heavy German armor with their nimble medium tanks.

Also, for an added bonus, watch for Shea Labeouf's missing and magically reappearing tooth.