Bowler vs Homburg

[JamesC]

Pardon my ignorance but there is so much on the internet I get confused I have seen several Stetson Royal De Luxe hats some where called Bowler and some where called Homburg but they looked the same to me? if all measurements are the same what makes one a Bowler and what makes one a Homburg? thanks

 

[mayserwegener]

Many times sellers mistake Bowlers for Homburgs and vice versa. A Bowler is a stiff felt hat and a Homburg is a soft felt hat. They both have curled brims (not the same type) which causes the confusion with sellers. Some do it on purpose and will show a Homburg open crown and call it a Bowler / Derby / Melone (stiff felts).

A Stetson Derby/ Bowler (notice stiff / rigid felt, also typical liner)

Stetson Homburg (notice soft felt with side dents and center crease)

 

[JackieMatra]

Bowlers are worn, as sold, with a rounded uncreased crown.
"Traditional construction" bowlers are "hard hats" with very stiff (and even reinforced) crowns which cannot be creased.
These days, hardly anyone, except Christy's of London, sells "traditional construction" hard bowlers.

Homburgs are soft felt hats which are "traditionally" worn with a "center dent" crown and almost always no "pinch".
Both bowlers and homburgs have ribbon-bound brim edges that are nearly always "curled".
Open crown (uncreased) homburgs are often indistinguishable in appearance from bowlers, except in that the homburgs will probably have (sometimes considerably) wider brims.

 

[JackieMatra]

"Many times sellers mistake Bowlers for Homburgs and vice versa. A Bowler is a stiff felt hat and a Homburg is a soft felt hat. They both have curled brims (not the same type) which causes the confusion with sellers (some do it on purpose)."

Many sellers seem to be quite unable to differentiate between different styles of hats, often referring to any uncreased ribbon-bound brim hat, whether it has a curled brim or not, as a bowler or derby, or even a fedora or trilby. (Most sellers seem never to have heard of homburgs.)

 

[mayserwegener]

Yes I agree in most cases it's due to lack of knowledge.

 

[JamesC]

So basically what I am hearing is Bowler hard felt Homburg soft felt

 

[alanfgag]

Yes, mostly. Derbies (bowlers) were called stiff hats. Homburgs would be in the class of soft hats. In the revival of the derby (bowler) in the 1950s-60s, the felt finish was softer. These later derbies can often be creased if you had a mind to.

 

[JackieMatra]

Almost all "bowlers" (or "derbys") that are manufactured today are fairly soft felt hats.
The major difference between "today's" bowlers and homburgs would be in that the bowlers will have narrower and usually more severely curled brims.

Yes, put a center dent into a soft bowler and you essentially have a narrow brim homburg, or leave a homburg uncreased and your have a soft wider brimmed bowler.
Leave a fairly flat wider ribbon-bound uncurled brim hat with an open crown, and you have Warner Oland as Charlie Chan.

 

[tommyK]

The Homburgs seem a little flatter on top or less rounded than the Derbys (although not always);

 

[JackieMatra]

Both homburgs and bowlers were sometimes made with nearly flat brims, although always with curled bound edges, although this was much more common with homburgs.

 

[JackieMatra]

Bowlers nearly always had narrower (usually about 3/4-7/8") hatbands than homburgs.

 

[alanfgag]

Pardon my ignorance but there is so much on the internet I get confused...

The encyclopedia of derbies and homburgs can be found here in these two threads. It's a great journey. I'm guessing that some of your confusion stems from eBay, where a large percentage of bowlers are actually uncreased open crown hats of all description. This is not a bad thing once you know what you're looking at as much gold is hidden in poor and incorrect listings.

If you are interested in either of these styles, I believe that vintage is the way to go. The supply is ample and the price (depending on your size) is reasonable. The modern approximation of these hats is more disappointing than other styles, perhaps due to the small market and the lost techniques, materials and craftsmanship. My opinion only, of course.

 

[alanfgag]

Bowlers nearly always had narrower (usually about 3/4-7/8") hatbands than homburgs.

Sounds good, but there are always exceptions. The derby had a long run and was influenced by fashion along the way.

 

[JackieMatra]

"Vintage" bowlers seem to be much more plentiful than "vintage" homburgs, but are fairly difficult to find in any color other than black, and are not all that common (as is also true of all hats and apparel) in larger sizes.

 

[rogerstg]

I agree, a bowler should be much stiffer than a homburg. :eeek:

 

[Frunobulax]

... a large percentage of bowlers are actually uncreased open crown hats of all description. This is not a bad thing once you know what you're looking at as much gold is hidden in poor and incorrect listings.

True Dat!

 

[jlee562]

I agree, a bowler should be much stiffer than a homburg. :eeek:

]

Man, I'd love a Cambridge bowler like the Oddjob hat just to have one, but I think only Lock makes them still and charges an obscene amount.

 

[ofcoursemyhorse]

Keep an eye on the bay, I found a Lock & Co. for an extremely reasonable price recently.

 

[Edward]

Bowlers are worn, as sold, with a rounded uncreased crown.
"Traditional construction" bowlers are "hard hats" with very stiff (and even reinforced) crowns which cannot be creased.
These days, hardly anyone, except Christy's of London, sells "traditional construction" hard bowlers.

Homburgs are soft felt hats which are "traditionally" worn with a "center dent" crown and almost always no "pinch".
Both bowlers and homburgs have ribbon-bound brim edges that are nearly always "curled".
Open crown (uncreased) homburgs are often indistinguishable in appearance from bowlers, except in that the homburgs will probably have (sometimes considerably) wider brims.

The pinch was very popular at certain times. By the Forties, over here, the Homburg had become viewed as a very formal hat, probably the main reason why you only tend to find vintage options in black or grey. Typically they'd have been worn with black tie, black lounge, or with a lounge suit on occasions such as weddings. The American-style fedora didn't really arrive in the UK & Ireland until the early thirties (around the same time as some young UK men began the hatless trend which would ultimately become the norm). During the twenties, the Homburg was worn in the same way a fedora would be later, and a pinch was certainly common. Michael Collins favoured homburgs with a pinch as well as a centre-dent. Photos of Collins, at least prior to becoming General Collins in 1922 (after which the majority of photos in existence are of him in the newly design military uniform of the Irish Free State) have him in a pinched homburg if there's a hat in them. I'm sure I've also seen many photos of Churchill wearing one with a pinch too, though I don't have access to a reliable image-search on a search engine right now (currently in Beijing). The pinch seems to become less common as the hat became more formal, though you still see it crop up here and there in photos.

 

[JackieMatra]

"The American-style fedora didn't really arrive in the UK & Ireland until the early thirties"

Yet here's a photograph of a famous Irishman wearing a fedora in the 19th century.
https://overdressedandovereducated.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/wildefedora.png

That aside, the most popular men's headgear, by far, from the latter 19th century through WWI, was the bowler.
Photographic evidence of the latter 19th century "American west" shows the bowler to be the most common headgear, even among "cowboys", at least for formal occasions, as posed photographs might be considered to be.
All of this probably resulted in the upper crust abandoning what had become "everyman's" hat for the homburg.
Large fedoras, at this same time, had become something of a popular "trademark" of artistic and bohemian types, particularly Italians, as can be seen from photographs of the likes of Oscar Wilde, Giuseppe Verdi, Giacomo Puccini, and others.