Borsalino bashing.........

[epic610]

i just opened a new borsalino como i have been wanting for a long time. it is the classic italian fedora. i understand and follow all the arguments on this forum about how the workmanship has slipped in the last few decades. perhaps so. the quality does not seem to my untrained eye as good as that of a 12-year old borsalino allesandria i have, nor to a new stetson 4X open road.

yet, it is a fine and stylish hat. it is new; doesn't need cleaning, blocking, etc. and i can wear it and it will look stylish for years to come.

perhaps more emphasis ought to be placed on this forum on acquiring and wearing of high-end hats . . . and less on the nitpicking of this type of stitching vs. another, vintage vs. new ....well, you know all those arguments.

besides, as more men start wearing hats, any price advantage of vintage will narrow. it's starting already.

 

[Raindog]

Hi Epic610,
I get your point, but for me it doesn't intrude on my enjoyment of posting here. I'd like myself to get a vintage hat, but my emphasis is mostly on buying new since vintage in my size are rare in the uk, and ones I do see on the net are not exactly in good condition.
Same with vintage clothes in general. I'm bigger than most people now, never mind the average gent from the 40's or 50's. There's no way I'll ever find anything vintage that fits that I also like. So I use this forum to try and gain knowledge of the styles from those eras, and aim to try and emulate them using new clothes.
I think maybe it's up to us the members to talk about stuff we want to talk about, be it new old or imaginary. I don't think anyone's going to object about people talking about new stuff, as long as it's in the vintage style and projects the vintage look


Jeff.

 

[fedoralover]

Guilty as charged--but!

I'm one of those that bash the new borsalino's. I feel that knowledge is power and if after you read all the pluses and minus's of a new borsalino and you still want one, then I say at least you made an informed decision and I sincerely hope you enjoy wearing your new lid.

But I know I would be personally dissappointed to NOT know and buy one and then find out later I could have had a custom made one from 100% beaver for about the same price.

In another instance it's like paying a price for a Cuenca Panama not knowing that for about the same price I could have had a Monticristi. I would rather know and make a decision from there, than not know.

Many people come to this site knowing very little about felt fedora's and other types of hats. They want the straight talk on what's available and what to look for in a quality hat. As long as it never gets personal I think we should share our experiences, good and bad in buying hats. If this forum had existed when I first started buying hats 7 years ago I would have saved a lot of money by learning from others.

regards fedoralover

 

[photobyalan]

perhaps more emphasis ought to be placed on this forum on acquiring and wearing of high-end hats . . . and less on the nitpicking of this type of stitching vs. another, vintage vs. new ....well, you know all those arguments.

besides, as more men start wearing hats, any price advantage of vintage will narrow. it's starting already.

I think you misunderstand why many of us buy vintage hats. It's not price, it's value. For the same level of quality that Borsalino put into their $235 hat, you would only need to spend 25 to 50 dollars for a vintage hat, even now. Here is the proof. Every hat pictured, with the exception of the Montecristi, was purchased within the last six months and not one was more than $50. None of them needed more than cleaning and hand shaping, some not even that.

On the other hand, for the $235 that the Cuomo fetches, you probably couldn't find a vintage hat to spend that much on, no matter how pristine the condition or how fine the felt, unless the hat had an unusual provenance. Of course, if you don't want a pre-owned hat, you could add a measley 40 dollars to that and get an Art Fawcett original, a limited editon for heaven's sake, in 100% beaver. I haven't held one of Art's hats in my hands yet, but the consensus is that the workmanship is first rate and, I'll bet, superior to the current crop of Borsalinos.

I don't understand your point about "nitpicking", either. Any valuable discussion about buying and wearing high-end hats should necessarily contain points about construction (stitching) and about value for the money (new vs. vintage) or it would be pretty shallow, don't you think?

 

[John in Covina]

Stomp my nuts, please.

Here's the rub, when person a makes a choice and buys something, has something done, there is always someone that comes back with the phrase:
I WOULD ...NEVER!... BUY THAT, DO THAT! What happens then is a "but if you like it it's okay."

The problem is by making "pronouncents of contrary absolutes" you put down, slap down the person your responding to, it comes out as a challange to justify your selection or choice of action. Instead of saying "I'd NEVER" you can say I'd be reluctant to because I feel that XX is a better choice. But if it is important you put somebody down....

Sure your clothes suck but you are just a rube so I understand.

From 'Caddyshack', when the guys are in the proshop, their friend from Japan that is taking pictures tries on one of the golf hats. Rodney Dangerfields charector spots the hat and says a line before realizing the Judge is wearing the same hat. "You know if you wear hat like that you should get a free bowl of soup...Oh but it looks good on you Judge."

 

[fedoralover]

True, but that's not what's going on here. If someone who has a limited knowledge about fedora's comes on the board and says " I have heard Borsalino's have been around a long time and make great hats and that beaver is the best fur to have a fedora made of, so I'm going to spend $435. on a 100% beaver Borsalino". Now should I just say " good for you, enjoy the hat"? Come on John, I know you wouldn't do that if you had personally seen them and knew where he could get a lot better one custom made for $275.

Maybe things don't always come out as tackful as they should here, but I think the vast majority of people here don't want to put others down, they just want to help fellow hat lovers get the best for the least from the most reliable.
I have personally owned 7 Borsalino's and have seen and held the new ones in person and I just can't honestly recommend the new ones. But if someone knows the options and what they are getting and still want one, then I can honestly say I hope they enjoy it. But I still won't recommend them until Borsalino brings back what they have lost.

fedoralover

 

[John in Covina]

Resulting in No Charges

True, but that's not what's going on here. If someone who has a limited knowledge about fedora's comes on the board and says " I have heard Borsalino's have been around a long time and make great hats and that beaver is the best fur to have a fedora made of, so I'm going to spend $435. on a 100% beaver Borsalino". Now should I just say " good for you, enjoy the hat"? Come on John, I know you wouldn't do that if you had personally seen them and knew where he could get a lot better one custom made for $275.

Maybe things don't always come out as tackful as they should here, but I think the vast majority of people here don't want to put others down, they just want to help fellow hat lovers get the best for the least from the most reliable.
I have personally owned 7 Borsalino's and have seen and held the new ones in person and I just can't honestly recommend the new ones. But if someone knows the options and what they are getting and still want one, then I can honestly say I hope they enjoy it. But I still won't recommend them until Borsalino brings back what they have lost.

fedoralover

I wasn't complaining about your post at all, your tack here is a great example of not pouncing on the guy, but explaining why you stay away from current production Borsalinos.

I don't know about you guys but sometimes the bird in the hand can be worth 2 in the bush. I know future permitting I will make an effort to get one of Art hats, but still, for something like this I prefer to be there, see, touch, feel, hear and smell as well as conduct business in a face to face personal one on one level. So I can see springing for something you have handled and tried on too. Espescially if the "lust" is heavy upon you!

In my family there is a story of me as about 8-10 years old wanting a canteen, and what I went thru to get it. Now I wonder where that canteen is at.

Warmest regards

 

[besdor]

The truth is that Borsalino can get away with the quality that they are using because they have a name behind them . Since they moved the factory back in 1985, the quality has never been the same . But that holds true for the other manufacturers as well . I have Stetson hats from 50 years ago that blow away anything made today . The quality used back them was a alot better . I dont think that the factories today could match the quality of the past because today many of the steps in manufacturing that were done years ago by hand are now done by machine. They also have terrible quality control (you didn't here that from me) in Italy in that they don't inspect the bodies carefully to find flaws . I can't tell everyone enough how many damaged hats I have returned to the manufacturer for defects.:cool2:

 

[Biltmore Bob]

If you liked it better than your money...

...it was a good deal.

 

[jeboat]

New versus old

It is totally up to the individual as to buy new or vintage(used). I have some of both and believe me except for my custom Adventurebilts the new hats I have are not very good. This includes Stetson and Resitol(both Hatco). However, the older ones are superior in every way.

The quality of felt and lining material was much better when real competition was the norm. I priced Borsalinos in Italy last Nov. and they cost as much as a brand new custom Adventurebilt. Which do you think I bought?

jeboat:cool2: :cool2: :cool2:

 

[tonyb]

Over the past dozen or so years I have spent somewhere in the vicinity of $1,500 (maybe more) on new Borsalinos. Those hats are but a few of the lids I have acquired, both new and used (my respect for plain-speaking forbids me to say "pre-owned," and "used" ain't necessarily "vintage") going back much longer than that. My newer Borsalinos have held up better than most of my other bought-new hats (only one of the Borsalinos has tapered), so I can't say that I'm dissatisfied with them. Still, I doubt I'll be buying any more new ones because I can get a custom for just a few bucks more and a decent vintage lid for considerably less than half. I wouldn't have known any of that without the knowledge I've gained here. My firsthand experience tells me that the later-model Borsalinos, despite all their shortcomings, remain superior to most other mass-produced brands. But they cost about twice as much. So if a guy wants a nice-looking hat but he isn't (yet) interested in learning the ins and outs of hat collecting (let's face it, guys, we all border on obsessive), I would still recommend a new Borsalino over the even-worse offerings from the other makers. And then I'd cross my fingers.

 

[Sardou]

Besdor, I'm impressed . . .

with your very honest commentary, given that Borsalino accounts for a lot of Bencraft's inventory (and revenues, I assume).

I'm even more impressed with the somewhat older stock Borsalino that I took home from your Williamsburgh store this past Tuesday. Lovely soft felt in a light brown, it's looks like an Alessandria but with a normal width ribbon. The elderly gentleman who helped me (whom I believe to be your father?) was very helpful, very patient and quoted me a price that no sane human could possibly refuse.

Yes, it may yet taper, but having no imminent plans to wear it cleaning out gutters in a drenching rain, I'll continue to assume that day is far off. By Biltmore Bob's standard (see above), it was a very, very good deal.

Sardou

 

[artboynyc]

I've had a couple of new Borsalinos over the years, and they varied in quality a lot.

I bought a couple from Levine Hat in St. Louis between ten and twelve years ago, when they used to run around $90, a slight premium to the rest of their stock, but at that time, worth it. I still have one hat from that time, a beautiful gold number (that has sadly acquired some spots) that is my wife's favorite hat of mine. On the other hand, I bought a brown one in Italy on our honeymoon that turned to dreck in the rain. The price has risen a lot since then. At $275, buying one seems like a hell of a risk.

Incidentally, the inconsistency of Borsalino's product -- and as far as I can tell, most modern hatters' product -- is one of the reasons I still like to buy off the shelf. You can try on two hats in the same size by the same manufacturer, and one will fit perfectly and look well made and the other will not. (I like vintage hats fine as far as it goes, but in a 7 5/8, my choices are limited.) I have no doubt that custom-made would be fine, but $300-400 still seems like a lot for a hat.

By the way, the last time I was in St. Louis, I bought a Knox Player from Levine. Beautiful, tall crowned hat made of thick, soft felt. Cheaper than a Borsalino by close to $100, and seemed to me to be much better made than the Borsalinos on the shelf in Levine.

Best,
Tom

 

[besdor]

Sardou , we have thousands of Borsalino hats in stock . The realy old ones we sold off about 5 years ago because we needed the room . I can't tell you how sad I was to let them go but we had no choice . I kept one of each style from when we started carrying Borsalino hats in the 1940's.They are part of my collection .:cool2: